super C with add on hydraulics

we recently picked up a SC. It has an extra hyrdraulic reservoir, an adaptor block, and a Gressen valve. The extra reservoir is plumbed to give more capacity to the tractor's system. The valve has only one work port hooked to a hose, the other is blocked off. The valve looks really simple, so i do not think it has relief or internal valving to dump for single acting use. Also i assume the block comes before the factory relief valve. With my observations and assumptions it appears that using the valve will dead head the pump.

Does anyone have more information on the Gressen valve and the adapter block? if i'm right, i'll have to get a relief valve or a different valve set with a relief.

thanks
karl f

Your whole set-up sounds a lot like what was done for front end loaders. Some loader manufacturers used Gresen valves. They made a #300 valve for one-way cylinders and #400 for two-way cylinders. The #300 had a plug (more towards the handle) that looked like it should be the place for the second non-existent hose. I don't know if that is what you have or not.

Karl: Aside from what Jim has said, one needs to know how the plumbing is done. I presume the added reservoir is either coupled to fill or drain plug and has a breather added on top, right or wrong?

Where is the Gressen valve plumbed into system? To work it must have a pressure supply from the tractor system and it must also have a return line back to the system. Beyond that there must be ports for cylinder supply, one will be single action, two will be double action.

Most of these received the pressure supply from a block spacer about 1/2" to 3/4" thick and bolted between hydraulic manifold from pump and the touch control unit. That block has a port for pressure supply to the valve. The return line just has to return oil to the reservoir, during the time your not activating the valve, probably somewhere between 80 and 98 percent of the time tractor is running.

I've also seen these plumbed several other ways, one being a power beyond valve with it's own pressure control and plumbed into high pressure line from pump and the return line from valve putting pressure to touch control system.

Any way this is achived, one must have a pressure line from the system and a return line back to the system. Oil must go somewhere during times the valve is not activated and supplying oil to cylinder or cylinders.

(quoted from post at 03:29:53 07/21/08 ) Karl: Aside from what Jim has said, one needs to know how the plumbing is done. I presume the added reservoir is either coupled to fill or drain plug and has a breather added on top, right or wrong?

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right. the reservoir adds capacity to the original system. the plumbing is done with the block in between the original lines and the reservoir. a hose goes from the block to the valve, and one back from the valve to the block. there is one work port/cylinder port with a pipe on it. I'll have to look again to see how and if a return line is plumbed.

My question is about how it is *supposed* to be plumbed more than how it is, as there are a lot of goofy additions and repair attempts on this machine that lack any common sense. Also my question is if the block is a power beyond type and its internal port functions, as my uncle has purchased another SC with a block where only a hose is looped from one port to another (no other auxillary parts are on the system now), leading me to assume that it could be a power beyond type adapter.

...Oil must go somewhere during times the valve is not activated and supplying oil to cylinder or cylinders.

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i fully understand that concept, which is why i think something looks funny for when the valve would be in "drop position," unless it is the #300 Jim mentioned which he made to sound like it does the necessary pressure relief internally.

Next time i am out at the farm i will have a look at all the plumbing and attempt to identify the valve.


thanks
karl f

(quoted from post at 20:20:57 07/20/08) Your whole set-up sounds a lot like what was done for front end loaders. Some loader manufacturers used Gresen valves. They made a #300 valve for one-way cylinders and #400 for two-way cylinders. The #300 had a plug (more towards the handle) that looked like it should be the place for the second non-existent hose. I don't know if that is what you have or not.

Click to expand...

I bet it had a loader, as the block looks to be replaced (i had a previous post on that subject).

do you have more info on the Gresen valves? Is there an easy way to identify if i cannot find the number? mine has a flat screw head pipe plug in the drop port, it might be a 300 but could be a 400 plugged. Does the 300 have internal relief when in the drop position? How about a relief valve?

Also do you or anyone know if the sandwiched block takes pressure from the pump first or after it has circulated through the touch control? If it is directly from the pump and the Gresen has no relief valve then I'll have to add one, as hitting the end of the stroke or any other dead head will ultimately cause damage, if it hasn't already. Do not have enough time operating to observe the pump seal leakage yet.

thanks
karl f

Pictures are always good. Look here:
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2008052821390893&item=930&catname=hydraulic
or here:
http://www.adifp.com/monovalves.htm
(Gresen seems to now be part of Parker.)

I hesitate to try to describe how your system should work as I don't know exactly what components you have or how they are connected. Here is some general description of how they were often done.

Normal high pressure flow from the hydraulic pump is through the smaller of the 2 manifold tubes into the main Touch-Control block. When an adapter (or diverter) block is added, it fits between the Touch-Control block and the fitting on the end of the manifold. This block has straight through holes everywhere except at the high pressure flow. In this position, there is an L shaped passage that goes in the side of the adapter and into the Touch-Control block. It blocks flow from the manifold. A hose is attached in place of the high pressure plug in the fitting on the end of the manifold. This hose provides flow to any external valves/attachments. The return from the external valves goes back into the port on the side of the adapter. Flow into the adapter then goes to the built-in valves of the Touch Control. The external valve needs to have pressure relief done one way or another. If a hose is connected directly from the high pressure of the manifold into the side of the adapter, the whole system works the same as without the adpater.

The simplest extenal attachment would be a single 1-way or 2-way valve with pressure relief that dumps into its outlet port. Some slightly more complex valves have a "power beyond" outlet that passes high pressure flow only when the valve is in neutral, which would be connected to the adapter. There is a second outlet port that gets the return flow from the cylinder and the pressure relief valve. This would be connected directly to the reservoir.

BY the way, we talk about 1-way and 2-way cylinders. The hydraulic people talk of the valves for each of these as 3-way and 4-way (the number of hose ports on the valve).

thanks for the description, Jim! It confirms what I figured out, adds more info, and includes basics so anyone can follow along. the surplus center pic looks very similar. I'll do more research as to what i have.

karl f

Jim: I've never done one of these on a touch control system. I did have a two spool valve with power beyond on my Farmall 300. It took it's power from the high pressure line coming from pump. The return of the power beyond valve went back into the high pressure line going to, and to power 300s regular 3 spool valve system.

I have been planing for some time to install something similar on my 130. On the 300 room for all this plumbing was not an issue, however with 130 it is an issue. I want this to be tidy. Currently my fabricated snow blade is lifted by rockshaft quite similar to the factory blade, however my blade is much heavier, and I'd far sooner be using a remote cylinder.

I've seen several systems or plumbing arangements on tractors with touch control, however no one has been able to tell me which is best. My own impression is that a factory remote valve and manifold, the type used on SC or 200 fast hitch, would be the best. I don't like the small elbos I've seen, screwed into manifold above the clutch pedal. I've got big feet. From your post, I assume, even with the block between manifold and touch control, one still has an elbo on right side of manifold. Correct me if I've misread you.

Karl: Read my responce to Jim. My Farmall 300 is the only one I've actually added remote valves to, no touch control, but basically what I had was a two spool Gressen with power beyond, going on to power the 300 regular 3 valve system. Basically I had 5 double action remote valves, three of which being 300 factory valves and could be switched to single action.

When I installed that, I was told by an IH technician, the only way to protect my factory pump and system was using a valve with power beyond capabilities. Anything else would dead head the pump. It operated successfully for me close to 10 years, and I only removed it when I removed the loader perminantly. I used the Gressen valve for loader lift and bucket tilt. One factory valve went to fast hitch, leaving me two remotes for implement cylinders.

While I realize the tractors equipped with touch control are a bit different, one is still powering a factory system beyond the added remote valve. I agree with you, there has to be a right and a wrong way to do this. I also believe there have been a good many plumbed the wrong way, and actually used reasonably successful for years. Question here is, how do we measure reasonably successful. It might mean mucking around in oil monthly. You sound like you don't want that, neither do I.

Hugh: if i had a digital camera or even a phone cam, i would take a pic of what it looks like installed on a SC for you. There is probably a way to utilize the block concept in a clean way for a 130, but it may require some machining or slight modification to the tractor. Also, the OE SC remote valve (and required tubing) may be just as bulky where you need to install it on a 130. We have one of those in the weeds too i wish i could take a pic of for you.

The machining i speak of could be a simple as drilling and tapping to accept the cleaner looking 56 series fittings like used for the brake lines and power seat vs. the pipe thread the adapters come with; or it could be as intense as reverse engineering the plate and relocating the ports. Maybe a blend of those two ideas? Even running a pipe out of the plate a few inches might help, but i do not know what that area looks like for your application, so even removing a small piece of platform may or may not help you.

karl f

I should add that on both tractors with the adapter block, it appears all external hoses goto the block on the bottom vs one to the test port on the side as the ebay items are described. the touch control rockshafts do function normally on both.

karl f

Karl: Speaking of machining and modifications, I have some other thoughts on what to do with my 130, however I'm not sure these are the answer either.

My 130 is equipped with one point fast hitch, and I have thought of removing the touch control unit completely, then fabricating a reservoir that would fit in it's place, leaving room on top and under fuel tank for a triple spool valve, double action with float on each valve. I could then use one valve for blade, one for hitch lift and the 3rd one for hitch depth control. This would require 3 remote cylinders, the 3 spool valve, plumbing and the reservoir. Probably set me back $1,500. I already have a 3 point hitch kit I use for a disk that is too much load for the tractor, both pulling and lifting. Since I only do 5 hours disking each year, plus plow snow out of my driveway, it would make sence to sell the 130, buy an H, SH or 300 with 3 point or fast hitch, install a snow blade, probably revenue neutral. But then if you play with old iron like I do, one does not always do things that make sence.

Hugh,
I believe you read what I said correctly. There are several ways to hook up a remote valve. There was a remote valve attachment for the Super A/140 similar to the one for the Super C. I don't know just when it came out but it even shows in the Super A parts book if you have a late enough edition. The Super C version shows in C, Super C and 200. The one for the offset models has a different lever and linkage than the one for the Super C.

Most of the other methods use a bypass block (adapter). It works just fine to use a valve like a Gresen 300 or 400 and just plumb the return back into the bypass block. The valve needs to have a relief valve (which those have).

The other way is to use a power beyond valve. The power beyond outlet needs to run into the bypass block. The return line from the valve goes into the reservoir.

These 2 methods will act different from each other if you activate more than 1 circuit at a time. With power beyond, THAT valve will take priority and the rockshafts will stop until the remote valve returns to neutral. With the other system, outflow from the remote valve continues to the Touch-Control system. They will all move at once, but the load on the rockshafts will cause back pressure into the remote valve, reducing the lift capacity accordingly.

Possible need for more reservoir capacity is a separate question. If you use any 1-way cylinders, you can quickly run into a problem. Big cylinders, like on loaders, can as well. An auxiliary resevoir is usually plumbed into the filler plug of the Touch-Control. With a power beyond system, the return from the remote valve is usually dumped into the auxiliary reservoir. If for no other reason, cycling the return through the auxiliary reservoir will help with cooling.

I just got through putting a #1000 loader on a Cub. I had to install a bypass adapter and hook up a line from the auxiliary reservoir into the Touch-Control. Here is a web page with an adapter installed for a #1000 loader. There are pictures of both the Cub and 140.
http://www.external_link/new/hy/012fp.htm
By the way, I am tapped into the (small) pressure plug on the manifold and it seems to work fine. My dad had pretty big feet and he used a bypass adapter on a Super A with no problem.

By the way, some Touch-Control filler plugs are pipe thread and are easy to connect a return line to. Others have a hex headed plug with straight threads that requires an odd adapter. IH made one that I don't think is available any more. I made one that was pretty easy and cheap. Here is a description.
http://www.farmallcub.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=33272

Jim, That sure is a good looking 140 in the picture. Did you paint it?
I am finishing a paint job on my 140, and need help on decal placement.
Any ideas?
Donald

Not my tractor. I just knew that page had good pictures. That 140 is an International, makes it more unusual.

I can't give you any specifics on 140 decals. Take good pictures before you strip off the originals.

Jim, I got my father's 1952 Super C back two years ago (after it was sold in 1962). I just retired again (2nd time) and have started to think about getting the tractor fixed up. I saw your thread here. One of owners had put an auxillary hydraulic tank on it and run the houses into the touch control pump so there are rear hydraulics. I got the hydraulic connection and reconnect the touch control and I purchased the block that goes between the touch control block and the connection to the pump. However, I have not connected the hoses on the auxillary tank to have rear hydraulics. Wished I had remembered to note which hose when here when I disconnect them, but I did not. One goes to the bottom of the tank and one to the top (if that is any help). Can you tell which hose from the auxillary tank connects where on the auxillary block..or what more information do you need. I probably can take some pictures and send them.

Bookman (Larry Hardesty)

Larry,
Since I don't know what you have for a tank and whatever for your auxiliary system, I would only be guessing which hose does what. Whatever one is the inlet needs to connect to the port in the Touch Control manifold (like the hose going up in TM's last picture of the 140/loader). The return needs to go into the bottom of the adapter block.

Depending on just what is there for an auxiliary system, it may be more complicated than that. If you can't figure out just what you have, send me some good close-up pictures and I'll see if I can figure anything out.

I think you have my email address. It hasn't changed.

Maybe I can be of assistance. My Super A has a 1000 loader on it, and it uses a bypass block on the touch control to provide the pressure.

I also have a twin draulic loader for my Cub which has a one-way Gresen valve on it. Those one-way Gresens seem pretty common.

Does the blocked-off port look like a factory thing, or a pipe plug that someone put in there? The factory blockoff either has a slotted or giant phillips top on it.