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Old Raceway M-Minor Setback

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The Red

09-29-2002 09:58:04




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I spent some time on it yesterday afternoon. I have not been happy with the oil pressure. Bermuda Ken sent me a new regulator spring and paper thin gasket. I was hoping that would help the pressure. The cap looked good and did not looked warped. The gears also looked good. I replaced the spring and paper thin gasket and installed. The new spring was 3/16" longer than the old one, so I thought I had found the problem. When the engine is cold and at full throttle, the needle is on the "I". After it warms up, the needle drops to the middle of "O". If I idle her down to 600 RPM with it warmed up, the needle drops down into the middle of the red zone. My thought at this point is to find another oil pump and see if that is the culprit. I did notice that the safety wire on the 3 bearing caps was poorly installed. My guess is the engine is on a second set of bearings. 20-20 hindsight says I should have spent the extra 30 minutes and pulled the center bearing cap and inspected.

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scotty

09-30-2002 06:33:30




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 Re: Old Raceway M-Minor Setback in reply to The Red, 09-29-2002 09:58:04  
Red,
Send me the bottom plate and I will be glad to surface grind it for you.
scotty
Scott Martin
10 Lantern Dr.
Seymour,Ct.
06483



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The Red

09-30-2002 07:31:02




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 Re: Re: Old Raceway M-Minor Setback in reply to scotty, 09-30-2002 06:33:30  
Scott I appreciate the offer. If I have trouble finding someone I will take you up on the offer. I don't expect to have any trouble finding someone around Indy to surface grind it though.



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The Red. Thanks To Everyone!

09-30-2002 06:10:42




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 Re: Old Raceway M-Minor Setback in reply to The Red, 09-29-2002 09:58:04  
Since I am getting good at dropping oil pans, I will take that oil pump cap out to NAPA and have their machine shop flat plane it. At the same time, I will pull the lower center main bearing and inspect and proceed from there!



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Zonie

09-29-2002 21:24:01




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 Re: Old Raceway M-Minor Setback in reply to The Red, 09-29-2002 09:58:04  
Sounds to me just about the same as my H was running shortly befor I ended up with a knocking bearing. Check out the rod and main bearing clearances. It's a lot cheaper to replace bearings, and easier than waiting till you have to get the crank turned.
When I overhauled My H I did surface the bottom plate on the oil pump as some otherss have mentioned, by using the plate glass and very fine grit emory cloth, worked great! If you do this make sure you put even pressure over the entire plate.
Good luck,
John

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Salvage Man

09-29-2002 20:43:27




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 Re: Old Raceway M-Minor Setback in reply to The Red, 09-29-2002 09:58:04  
The oil pump drive shafts wear out. to check this. Take the bottom cover off of the oil pump pullout the idler gear. Now pry the other gear over and check the clearance between the case and the gear. If you can get a .009 feeler gauge in-between the case and the gear then I would find an other pump.



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RAW in IA

09-29-2002 18:44:52




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 Re: Old Raceway M-Minor Setback in reply to The Red, 09-29-2002 09:58:04  
Red. I used to rebuild oil pumps at a Cat dealer and when the covers were just worna little, we wouls "surface" them by wortking them on a sheet of emery paper layed on aflat piece of glass. Working them in a figure eight pattern on the paper would clean up the cover if it wasn't grooved too bad.



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randy hall

09-29-2002 18:42:23




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 Re: Old Raceway M-Minor Setback in reply to The Red, 09-29-2002 09:58:04  
i agree with irv, when i overhaul an m i always take the oil pump bottom plate to work and surface grind it to get the marks out.



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Irv

09-29-2002 17:11:53




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 Re: Old Raceway M-Minor Setback in reply to The Red, 09-29-2002 09:58:04  
Hi Red, I haved worked on the oil pumps a fair amount. I saw from your pic that the gears have worn into the cover. This will increase your headspace. I would take your cover and have somebody surface grind it flat. Belt sanding ( A Polish grind job) just won't do. A .001 difference in headspace can change the pressure output. In my first H, I ground the cover face flat, stoned the gears for burrs and reassembled it with no gasket. The gasket is really only a shim for controlling the headspace. If the 2 surfaces are clean & flat, it will seal ok. I did not change the spring or the gears. I worked on an oil pump operation @ GM. We found that a minor variation in the cover flatness made for a large variation in pressure. Most automotive designs do not use any gasket. As I said the gasket is really a shim. A headspace of .001 is minimal. About .005 is the most I would shoot for. By the way, the pressure of the pump is such that the gears will allways push up into the cover, creating those witness marks.

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Jim

10-01-2002 08:10:16




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 Re: Re: Old Raceway M-Minor Setback in reply to Irv, 09-29-2002 17:11:53  
You are right on. Had 20 lbs of pressure on a Super M I just bought. Milled the plate on the oil pump and cleaned and polished the relief valve put in 40 weight oil because I though I had other problems and the gauge in a couple of seconds went to 75.



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JCM

09-29-2002 17:04:22




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 Re: Old Raceway M-Minor Setback in reply to The Red, 09-29-2002 09:58:04  
How about swapping out the oil gauge for one you know that works accurately?



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The Red

09-30-2002 09:53:48




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 Re: Re: Old Raceway M-Minor Setback in reply to JCM, 09-29-2002 17:04:22  
The oil gauge is brand new from IH. The old oil gauge was stuck on the letter I. I think this problem has been around awhile.



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the tractor vet

09-29-2002 17:02:41




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 Re: Old Raceway M-Minor Setback in reply to The Red, 09-29-2002 09:58:04  
I ain't going to say a word .



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bill b va

09-29-2002 15:14:19




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 Re: Old Raceway M-Minor Setback in reply to The Red, 09-29-2002 09:58:04  

the fact that your oil pressure drops after the motor gets warm is a sign you have excessive clearences some where .you have pretty well eliminated the oil pump .it is easy to use plastigage to measure the bearing clearances .if you do be sure to jack up the crankshaft against the upper bearing halves so you don't get a false reading . i don't know the "m" motor but suspect it has pressure lubricated rod bearings also .usually the rod bearings get excessive clearence before the mains . you can change the mains in most motors without removing the crankshaft simply by putting a cotter pin in the oil hole and rotating the upper shell out by turning the crankshaft .

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Honkey

09-29-2002 10:18:32




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 Re: Old Raceway M-Minor Setback in reply to The Red, 09-29-2002 09:58:04  
It'll run like that just fine as long as you aren't pulling it for all it's got.

It's nothing a new set of mains won't cure.

Good luck,
Matthew in SD



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The Red

09-29-2002 10:26:51




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 Re: Re: Old Raceway M-Minor Setback in reply to Honkey, 09-29-2002 10:18:32  
Thanks Matthew. I might drop the oil pan again this afternoon and inspect the middle lower bearing. I still think the oil pump is the culprit. When I rebuilt the H back in 1999, it had poor oil pressure after the rebuild. I swapped pumps and the pressure increased over 20PSI. Old Raceway M has had such little use and does not burn oil. So I don't think the bearings are the culprit at this point.

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Wayne Swenson

09-29-2002 21:14:51




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 Re: Re: Re: Old Raceway M-Minor Setback in reply to The Red, 09-29-2002 10:26:51  
Remember, the camshaft bearings have a great influence on your oil pressure so don't condem the pump, main bearings, or rod bearings until you get the full story.
Like you said, it doesn't get much use so just keep the engine running at a faster idle speed and put some pedal extensions on for Corey!!



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