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What's Wrong With Detergent Oil?

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Andy Martin

09-03-2001 07:27:08




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We regularly see posts recommending non-detergent oil to avoid engine damage from breaking large amounts of sludge loose.

I have never experienced this and have always put detergent oil in any tractor I buy. I never overhaul a tractor until I have worked it and am sure it needs an overhaul and not just adjustment. Or MMO in the oil to free stuck rings. This includes an engine where I drained out brown lumps, put detergent in, and ran it until the new oil looked bad. I agree it is better to pull the pan and at least scrape off the screen. I really think detergent oil is not that strong of detergent, and that oil passages rarely plug off in operation. They get plugged sitting for years as dirty oil settles. Non-detergent oil does not help that, but detergent may.

So my question: Who has damaged an engine, or suspect they did, by using detergent oil?

If the fear of putting detergent in these old engines is an old wives' tale, lets stop it. If there is real danger, I don't want to lead someone astray.

Please deal with personal experiences here, and not "I heard of a guy in Toledo" because a lot of those stories are just that.

Thanks, guys and gals.

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Denny Frisk

09-05-2001 07:22:28




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 Re: What's Wrong With Detergent Oil? in reply to Andy Martin, 09-03-2001 07:27:08  
Andy - I think more of these old tractors had detergent oil used in them than most people think, just not the best brands and probably not serviced as often as they should have been. The thing I find surprising actually is the number of these "Fence Row Setter's" that actually are able to be restored. I always figure they were parked out there out-of-the-way for a reason long ago, and that reason is still there!

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The Red

09-04-2001 12:44:18




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 Re: What's Wrong With Detergent Oil? in reply to Andy Martin, 09-03-2001 07:27:08  
When I bought Old Red H in 1990, it had run on detergent oil all it's life. Lots of sludge in the oil pan and I had to thoroughly clean the intake screen. The rocker arm area though was not too bad if I recall. For about the next 200 hours, I changed the oil and filter around every 50 hours. The filter would be pretty well packed by then. It has been running clean since about 1992.



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mel

09-04-2001 05:17:03




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 Re: What's Wrong With Detergent Oil? in reply to Andy Martin, 09-03-2001 07:27:08  
I use DELO oil (diesel engine lubricating oil) in my H, super C, and cub lo-boy and have had no problems. I change the oil frequently. my 2 cents.



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Zonie

09-03-2001 17:27:02




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 Re: What's Wrong With Detergent Oil? in reply to Andy Martin, 09-03-2001 07:27:08  
Andy,
Last april I bought a 48 H that had be running nondetergent oil for all of it's life. I decided to switch it over to 15W40 diesel rated oil, this oil has loads of detergent in it. I pulled the pan and cleaned out lots of nasty sludge, changed the oil filter. After changing the oil I ran the tractor several hours,the oil looked horrible so I changed the oil and filter again. Then did the same about 4 times total. My oil pressure ran ok when cold but would drop kinda low when the engine got warmed up.
After the final time I changed oil the oil pressur dropped to nothing and the engine started knocking. When I pulled the engine down I found no spun bearings, just a crank that looked like it had been running on sandpaper, It needed to be turned to .020 undersized to clean up. The old bearings were Std. size. The babbit material looked as tho it had fine sand impregnated in it.
The mains looked the worst but rod bearings and the cam bearings all had the stuff in them.
I know this engine was due for an overhaul due to lack of compression when I bought it but I feel that the damage to the crank was done by loosening up the sludge and debris throughout the engine.
I'm kicking myself in the hind-end for messing with the oil, but I also wonder if it would have happened anyway?
At least the crank was still turnable. It could have been alot worse!

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Bill Jones

09-03-2001 12:38:07




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 Re: What's Wrong With Detergent Oil? in reply to Andy Martin, 09-03-2001 07:27:08  
I was always taught that detergent oil means that the detergent is there to keep the particles {i.e. carbon,dust,etc.} in SUSPENSION until the oil is changed,thereby draining contaminants out with the oil.The OLD non-detergent oil did not nor does it have this capability,as it lets the contaminants settle out just to re-mix all over again,settling the grit etc. all over the place like in depressed areas or pockets in the engine block.The detergent isn't a cleaner,it is a suspender.When these tractors were made, we didn't have detergent oil.I'm sure we all have different experiences with kinds and brands of oils,and I probably don't know my a** from a hole in the ground ,but using superior synthetics or detergent motor oil won't cause gasket failures or sudden leaks,or bearing failures,these problems must have been there all along,the oil is not to blame.BillJ

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Rick (MN)

09-03-2001 12:30:12




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 Re: What's Wrong With Detergent Oil? in reply to Andy Martin, 09-03-2001 07:27:08  
When detergent oils first came out they had a tendency to foam which reduced the lubricity of the oil. That is where the recommendation to stay away from them came from. The only situation in which an engine will start using oil after switching would be in the event that carbon had built up behind the rings unevenly and the rings had worn unevenly. When the detergent broke the carbon loose, the ring was no longer round and therefore allowed oil by. Speaking only for myself, everything I own gets diesel oil, which is very high in detergent. I want the inside on my engines as clean as possible. When I buy one that I believe had a life of non-detergent oil, I be sure to do a couple quick oil changes. My guess is the ratio of positive to negitive stories will be somewhere in the 100 to 1 neighborhood. One other thing to consider, if the engine should start to use oil after the switch, it was very near needing a "freshening up" anyway. Good Luck, Rick

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Bob Kerr

09-03-2001 10:04:13




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 Re: What's Wrong With Detergent Oil? in reply to Andy Martin, 09-03-2001 07:27:08  
This isn't related to tractors but it is a story about and extreme case of "detergent" screwing up an engine. I was working in a repair garage one winter a few years ago and the weather turned BITTER cold. We got down to -27 below here in central Indiana and the next day only got to -19 for the so called high temp. Our wrecker was running 18 hrs straight bringing in cars that wouldn't start and we were very behind. The first thing we would do when we brought them in was to check the oil. Almost evey car brought in was "over filled" which meant the the people had tried to start it and flooded it badly and the gas got into the oil.Have you ever seen how thick 10w-30 is at -27 degrees? It pours like frozen molasses. Well this one family "just had to have the van running and "couldn't wait any longer"even though the entire state was just about totally shut down, and they got it going the day after they called us. Of course it was flooded and the oil level was 2" over the full mark(full of gasoline).The van was a ford aerostar with way over 200,000 miles. They drove the van for half of a day and called us the next morning saying it was making noises and wanted us to look at it. The oil pressure totaly went bye bye and the rods were knocking. What happened was the gunk off the inside of the engine was washed off by the gasoline and when it was shut off the gunk settled to the bottom of the pan totally burying the pick up screen. Heck , when we took out the drain plug the gunk was so thick no oil came out! We had to poke a wire in the hole and then the gunk came out followed by oil and then the gas came out.We cleaned out the pan and pick up screen and put it all back together and it still knocked like crazy. They had obviously ran it a while like that. Needless to say this as an extreme case but it is an example none the less.Just plain detergent oil can cause this to happen but of course not as bad as this one was. Gasoline in the crank case is one heck of a "cleaner" or if you will, "detergent".

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KURT

09-03-2001 10:01:02




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 Re: What's Wrong With Detergent Oil? in reply to Andy Martin, 09-03-2001 07:27:08  
I do believe that detergent oil is best. Where the problem comes in is if you use a engine flush, like switching over to a synthetic. and then that engine flush breaks loose ALL the sludge and gives you problems. A synthetic oil distributor tryed to get me to switch over to Amsoil, with the engine flush and I said, No, my IH-H has been running for 57+ years now and I aint changing over to synthetic.

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John Ne.

09-03-2001 09:56:26




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 Re: What's Wrong With Detergent Oil? in reply to Andy Martin, 09-03-2001 07:27:08  
Andy, I can't say there is anything wrong with detergent oil, except it wasn't developed when alot of the tractors we mess with were built. So it wasn't recommended, being nonexistant. I've torn down engines that had the oil pickup screen 90%plugged from old sludge, have only heard of burnt bearings from others. If I'd get a tractor that had sat for years, definitely would put in non detergent, but one thats been used always, would feel safe with detergent. Why buy trouble, plenty enough comes my way as it is. John in Ne.

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Chris J

09-03-2001 09:30:04




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 Re: What's Wrong With Detergent Oil? in reply to Andy Martin, 09-03-2001 07:27:08  
My Dad and I have been working on my H for a few weeks now (on and off) and when I called to tell him that I had changed the oil, he asked if I had put detergent or non-detergent in it (I had put detergent in it) and he said good, just keep an eye on it and change it the end of season, maybe sooner with heavy use and then use it regular after. No proof one way or the other, just another opinion.

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LEWIS SMITH

09-04-2001 15:01:44




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 Re: Re: What's Wrong With Detergent Oil? in reply to Chris J, 09-03-2001 09:30:04  
I SUPPOSE I CAN OFFER THIS HELP, I REBUILT MY SUPER A ABOUT 6 YEARS AGO, USED DETERGENT OIL IN IT SINCE, DOESN'T USE ANY OIL AND HOLDS GOOD OIL PRESSURE.



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Chums5

09-03-2001 08:04:34




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 Re: What's Wrong With Detergent Oil? in reply to Andy Martin, 09-03-2001 07:27:08  

Andy....."I" have two examples for you...."I" put 10w40 in my "H" few yrs ago and it started going thru oil you swear it was a diesel coming down the road....cost $700. to rebuid....#2..."I" have a JD garden tractor...with a two cyl ONAN engine in it ....I'm sold on synstic oil in the cars and trks..really helps well I checks with manuf. about putting in JD and they OKed....two weeks later started burning oil and next day during mowing blew a rod..... .I found with company of synstic oil and they paid for engine.....I "WON'T" put detergent oil in my tractors unless manuf. calls for it...!!!!! Good Luck..

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Ralph

09-03-2001 07:56:21




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 Re: What's Wrong With Detergent Oil? in reply to Andy Martin, 09-03-2001 07:27:08  
Andy: People have different views about chaging oil. You wanted an example: About 12 years ago, I sold my MF-crawler. It has a perkins diesel that was in fairly good shape even after I had used it for 10 years. About 3+ years after I sold it, the owner stopped by to ask me about helping him fix the engine. I found out he had not even changed oil even once and he had it in use year around. He just keep adding. It was like tar when it came out. He just shrugged his shoulders when I asked him about this lack of upkeep. He said he didn't see a need to be "extra nice" to any engine. Now that had detergent oil but you know that there are people like him years ago that were using Farmalls with non-detergent without ever changing. That can lead to the problems if switched. Also try and remember many of these Farmalls were bought new by people who had just come thru the "great depression" and WW2 where NO EXTRA MONEY was ever spent of anything. It was a different mind set back then. These tractors are the some of the ones being restored. good question. ralph

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