Glow plug voltage...

Absent Minded Farmer · Sep 27, 2020

What are my readings supposed to be on a 12v system? Currently, if I push the glow plug button, I get 11.38v across the posts on the battery, 9.1v on the post the wires connect to by the fuel lines & plugs themselves are between 7.8v & 8.4v. The voltage on the plugs rises as they heat. I'm going to venture a guess that happens due to less resistance as they heat? Are my numbers reading correct or is something wrong? Maybe the original wiring ist kaput on my 560? The battery is fresh. One other thing, what is a safe amount of time to leave the plugs energized? They're new & I would rather not fry them out.

Mike

Janicholson · Sep 27, 2020

11.38 with just the glow plugs on, not cranking the engine with the starter, is too low. The plugs draw less than 50 amps, though that is a lot, the battery voltage should be much closer to 12.5 maybe 12.4 under that load. Jim

Absent Minded Farmer · Sep 27, 2020

Yep, it was just the glow plugs, no cranking. I was told at the dealership that the battery had been on the shelf for some time. Hasn't been charged much either. There's only about a 1/2 hour of run time on it since it was installed. Suppose I can put the charger on it to see if it makes a difference.

Mike

rustred · Sep 27, 2020

hold for 30-60 seconds pending on weather , and also at the same time as cranking and keep holding till smoke disappears and engine is hitting on all 6 cyls. smoothly. on my 560 i can release button after engine starts as it has never been apart with 5600 hrs. and is one of the easiest starting 282's i have seen.

Absent Minded Farmer · Sep 27, 2020

Oh, I've been undercooking it. Currently heating it for 25 sec & then starting it with the glow plugs energized. Will give a longer preheat a try next time & see if that works. Still seems to be a bit low on voltage to the plugs. The charger is on it now & set to trickle. We'll see if that makes a difference. Could use more run time as well.

Mike

kevinj54 · Sep 27, 2020

(quoted from post at 17:25:45 09/27/20) Oh, I've been undercooking it. Currently heating it for 25 sec & then starting it with the glow plugs energized. Will give a longer preheat a try next time & see if that works. Still seems to be a bit low on voltage to the plugs. The charger is on it now & set to trickle. We'll see if that makes a difference. Could use more run time as well.

Mike

Be careful holding them on with the engine running if ya have an alternator on it.

Glow plugs can't take much over 11.5 volts.

An alternator will jump right up to 14 when it starts.

Absent Minded Farmer · Sep 27, 2020

Good to know. I currently still have the original genny on it. My 2444 has an alternator on it. Don't want to burn out those plugs. They would be a
bear to change out with the loader on it.

Mike

the tractor vet · Sep 27, 2020

Well here is a little tid bit of info , When the 560 D was new they came with two 6 volt batterys and the reason for this was that two 6's hooked together for 12 volts you had close to a 1000 AMPS cold cranking power . I am guessing your running one 12 volt car battery and that ah aint' ah going to cut the mustard . You was around 1000 cold cranking amps . If my old mind is still remembering i do believe that them old 6's were like 580 cold cranking amps each . I would find two group 24's that had over 580-90 cold cranking amps. I am not sure if you can make a group 31 truck battery fit as most of them are around a 1000 amp and the good ones are 1250 . Been a long time since i dealt in batterys . Back in 77 i bought a new 4300 H eagle and i was shocked to find out that they did away with the 4 6 volts and now had three 12 volts . It was a weight savings deal , instead of four group five 6's i had three Delco Group 31's . When winter came ah calling the fun began if you did not get her to lite on the first try you were done and had to put the pick up on her and mess around . Was not long before one of them shorted and i bought three new battery and they were not Delco's . When i went to start it they new batterys that were 1250 each over the 1000 of the Delco's when i hit the button i thought the starter was going to throw that Cummins out on the ground even at -25 . With a gas tractor ya don't need all that but on a diesel ya need cranking amps and with one that has glow plugs the min. you start your preheat it will suck the surface charge off fast. Now as for glow plug time on them old engines on a HOT SUMMER day they need no less then 30 seconds and on a really cold day when ya should be in the house setting by the fire you might need a min and a half . Caterpillar Direct starts can take up to three min. preheat time but there preheat switch is way easier on the fingers .

Absent Minded Farmer · Sep 27, 2020

When 12v battery shopping, I gauge my needs by what I had in my '62 Galaxie. That had a 1000 cranking amp battery in it after it didn't want to start at -5F. So, the 560 & my 2444 both have that battery. Forget what the 806 gasser has. It's a EE battery, but I don't recall the amps. The H's & Cub have 6v 620s. As for the glow plug button on the 560, I use an Irwin quick grip bar clamp & time it with the stopwatch on my dumbphone. Wasn't a fan of the idea that the burning in my thumb joints (arthritis) felt like it was hot enough to light diesel fuel in the cylinders.

Mike

the tractor vet · Sep 28, 2020

That is what i run in my Dodge Cummins , BUT i run two of them . and only one on your 560 is not enough . Been many years and i do mean many years since i spent a lot of time running a 560 D like 1963 when it was replaced with the 806 the second week of Sept. and in all the years of working on and buying and selling there has only been three and two of those i bought and sold one i worked on for a friend . When they came out the were popular and ya saw them everywhere and now around here i only know of one 460 that a close friend has that his dad bought new . And that one has had a rough life as i can not tell you how many times it had had valve jobs as it is a gasser , how many rear axles it has broken under the picker i can ahtest to three in the field with the picker still on one T/A that i did . Last 560 D i bought i called and auctioneer friend of mine and told him what i would give for several tractors he had in a sale coming up that i could not go to because of another sale the same day that i was going to that i needed to be at to also do buying for another friend since he was going to another sale and going to do buying for me . I ended up with seven tractors from that phone call then i could not get them for like three months due to the fact that a blizzard moved in and buried everything in drifts up to 20 feet deep .When i did get out to start getting them home we still had to move snow to get a chain on them and drag them out . That one still had the two 6's in it and that is what i put back in it . That group 65 may state it has a 1000 CCA but that is NOT the same as what a group 31 has in reserve or two i think group 4 6 volts . The way we use to judge how long to glow plug them is how bad your thumb ached holding the button in.

the tractor vet · Sep 28, 2020

Yes they can , they are a 12 volt glow plug , now sometimes guys will use the newer glow plug that are of more a 6 volt design and heat way faster BUT are on a time cutout like those used on new pick up engines and will cycle on and off . after working on a problem child that ATE glow plugs like M &M's and after and hour and half on the phone with Bouch learning everything you anted to know about GLOW plugs but were afraid to ask . On the D236 on up thru the D301 depending on ambient temp on a HOT DAY 30 seconds and on a colod day up to a min. and a half and hold till engine runs smooth . On m y one friends LX 665 New Holland skid steer the glow plugs are in a timer relay and on a HOT day you turn the key on and 3 seconds and you can start on a COLD day when you should be in the house setting by the fire 12 seconds , and THAT is the max run time on that glow plug and 14 seconds your toast . His relay was defective and was holding to long and EATING glow plugs on Cold days , i so loved replacing them in 0 degree weather . After the phone call and lots of talk and questions we came up with a replacement with a fast heat up and a longer run time but still replaced the relay . On the OLD system your FINGERS are the RELAY and timer .

Old-F20 · Sep 28, 2020

I run a group 31 12v battery with '00' welding cables with soldered and crimped ends. I updated from the JUNK IH glowplugs from the dealer to ones for a 7.3 powerstroke. chase the threads on the glowplug with a fine 3/8 die and your in business. My 560 is TIRED and will start in under 15 seconds at ANY temp. Ill bet my weekly paycheck on it and take yours to the bank. That setup is cats a** for the 282 diesel

560Dennis · Sep 28, 2020

I run a group 27 marine /rv battery in my 560 D . I do not use the old starting procedure with the new glow plugs . That was for the old ge glow pugs .
I time the heat warm up to be from 7 to ten seconds for glow plug to get red hot.
The thing I do is go to 1/3 throttles and rotate engine two or three turns with out glow plugs to get fuel to wet the precombustion chamber . I push glow plug button in and count to ten hit the starter button and the tractor starts in 12 to fifteen seconds . In summer it’s faster sometimes.

KFFarm · Sep 28, 2020

(quoted from post at 19:18:07 09/27/20) Well here is a little tid bit of info , When the 560 D was new they came with two 6 volt batterys and the reason for this was that two 6's hooked together for 12 volts you had close to a 1000 AMPS cold cranking power . I am guessing your running one 12 volt car battery and that ah aint' ah going to cut the mustard . You was around 1000 cold cranking amps . If my old mind is still remembering i do believe that them old 6's were like 580 cold cranking amps each . I would find two group 24's that had over 580-90 cold cranking amps. I am not sure if you can make a group 31 truck battery fit as most of them are around a 1000 amp and the good ones are 1250 . Been a long time since i dealt in batterys . Back in 77 i bought a new 4300 H eagle and i was shocked to find out that they did away with the 4 6 volts and now had three 12 volts . It was a weight savings deal , instead of four group five 6's i had three Delco Group 31's . When winter came ah calling the fun began if you did not get her to lite on the first try you were done and had to put the pick up on her and mess around . Was not long before one of them shorted and i bought three new battery and they were not Delco's . When i went to start it they new batterys that were 1250 each over the 1000 of the Delco's when i hit the button i thought the starter was going to throw that Cummins out on the ground even at -25 . With a gas tractor ya don't need all that but on a diesel ya need cranking amps and with one that has glow plugs the min. you start your preheat it will suck the surface charge off fast. Now as for glow plug time on them old engines on a HOT SUMMER day they need no less then 30 seconds and on a really cold day when ya should be in the house setting by the fire you might need a min and a half . Caterpillar Direct starts can take up to three min. preheat time but there preheat switch is way easier on the fingers .

A group 31 will fit. My 560D has one on it.

DR. EVIL · Sep 29, 2020

To add more info to what RustRed and Absent Minded were talking about, my local Ford store diesel tech told me the first time I had my 7.3L PSD in for a cam position sensor that I'd be much happier NOT increasing engine rpm after it started, exactly because the alternator increased the voltage over what they could handle. He said turn the key to run, let the GP heat till wait to start light goes out, turn key to start. NEVER touch the gas pedal this whole time till the volt gage drops to 10-11V. That means the glow plug relay has disconnected the power to GP's. I replaced my factory glow plugs around 240,000 or 250,000 miles. ANYHOW, if the BERU ZF-11's can be made to fit your 560 run them. Son's started my old truck with over 310,000 miles unaided at 5 below zero. The block heater works fine but he won't use it.
I've got two Group #65 Sears Diehards in the truck. 950 or better CCA.
My Ford tech told my the first 7.3L PSD ambulances had real short glow plug life, dual alternators, around 400 amps, the engine would start and by the time the needle on the oil psi guage moved they were in gear and hard on the gas. A month old ambulance had all 8 gp's bad. My truck at 240-250K had 4 good 4 bad.

Absent Minded Farmer · Sep 29, 2020

I've heard that about the 7.3 plugs. They should work if they're re-threaded. The CaseIH ones that are in there now are working good so far. "So far" being the key words. I upped my time with heating the plugs to 35 sec & kept them on until the cylinders were warm. So, 58 sec total read on the timer. That was at 53F. I leave the throttle at about 1/3 or 1200 RPM. Then it sits & warms up for at least 5 min.

Don't have anything to do with it in the dead of winter. Just spread manure this fall if I ever find a brake disc for the PTO unit. There is the 806 that I've had on that job, but is goes through gas like the stuff is free. That's why the 560 needs to get back on the job. It didn't go through that much fuel when the pump leaked.

Mike

Absent Minded Farmer · Sep 29, 2020

Is a group 31 larger than a 65? Don't have much more room under the hood for a bigger battery.

Mike

Absent Minded Farmer · Sep 29, 2020

The new glow plugs as in the 7.3s? I'll have to try wetting the cylinders first. I do that with my H before pulling out the kill switch & it always fires in a crank, maybe two.

Mike

Absent Minded Farmer · Sep 29, 2020

I hear ya. Once the braided ground finally lets loose, I'll run a 00 ground down to the starter bolt. If the CaseIH plugs crap out on me, I will be
going to the 7.3 plugs. So far it's doing well with a longer preheat time & keeping the plugs energized until the exhaust clears.

Mike

Absent Minded Farmer · Sep 29, 2020

So far, I've had better luck yesterday & today with a longer pre-heat & keeping on the glow plug button until the exhaust clears. Had 35 sec on the preheat & another 23 sec before the exhaust clears. If it gets problematic again, I'll throw in the second battery &/or upgrade to the 7.3L plugs.

Two questions for ya. How do you set the idle down lower (currently at 900 RPM) & does it pay to turn the pump up on a stock engine? After poking around on the 'net, it would seem like there's only about a 10 HP increase. Wondering if the extra fuel consumption would be worth it.

Mike

560Dennis · Sep 30, 2020

sSorry I didn’t say , I use new stock Replacement glow plugs on eBay . This photo is the old ge

Most important to me is to bench test your glow plugs on your tractor to see how fast they come up to glow. From there you have the time for your starting procedure.
Also if my hour meter is correct I have 7000 hours on this engine and does not fail to start, using this procedure , very happy with stock replacement glow plugs as long as I don’t over heat them using the thirty second or longer heat up cycle.
I also have heavy duty battery cables .
I’m remember Testing across the battery Terminal s ( voltohm meter )with glow plugs On I get 11.8 volts , but tested this 3 years ago , and my memory

Absent Minded Farmer · Sep 30, 2020

I'm using whatever CaseIH sells these days. The tips on those get to be a nice, bright orange in about 6 or 7 seconds. The old ones I pulled was around 12 sec. There were only two of those working when I pulled them all. Currently, my preheat time is 35 sec. Then about 20 after it fires up to get it to run smooth. So far, so good there. The manual for it from IH says to keep the plugs energized until the exhaust clears. I do wonder if the new glow plugs are up to the challenge of the old ones or if they'll just fail from overheating in short order.

Mike

560Dennis · Oct 3, 2020

35 second pre heat is way to long Imo , that will destroy the glow plug in my opinion . My son read the manual and did that , the tractor would not start after the second ,use . I got the call , went out and the glows were shot ,I had to drive them out of injector ,the end swollen up (bulges ) . $120 bucks wasted
Here is the procedure I use
1. Put 560D it in neutral.foot on brake ,clutch in
2. Push starter button to rotate engine two or three revolutions two wet glow plugs with fuel in precombustion chamber .Release starter button to stop revolution. Do not engage glow plugs without wetted with fuel .
3. Push glow plug button to glow plugs to heat fuel on wet glow plugs to vaporize fuel . Count slowly to 7 ,then engage starter holding in glow plug button till engine starts . That in my case is 12 to 15 seconds from start of procedure. When engine starts, I release the glow plug button ,I don’t hold it in to clear up smoke as book say to do .
I’ll stop there , I have had no problems in cold weather starting this tractor . In warm weather the tractor will start even faster but with a lot of smoke .
Good luck

Glow plug voltage...

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