2606 with c221 sleeveless block parts needed

Hello guys. Thought I would start a new thread. Took the block to the machine shop today. They will pull the crank and the 2 stuck pistons and see what it will need. He couldn't find any oversized pistons with Reliance and his thinking is that it would need to be bored for dry sleeves with them being bored for standard pistons depending upon how it all check's out. I told him I would check on parts and options. I am not sure why you can't bore it and use standard pistons with oversized rings.

It is a approximate 1966 model 2606 industrial with a c221 sleeveless engine serial number 50541 that I believe came from a 303 combine of unknown year. Any ideas on this is appreciated. Inside the block in 3 places are casted numbers c185, f185, and r185 for every 2 cylinders. While every thing is in the shop, I can paint the rest and I need to replace the high side 12 gpm hydraulic pump with a 17 gpm and may replace the low side depending upon the price. Thanks, Britt

I think you would almost be better off buying a IH460 C221 engine or block that already has sleeves in it from
the factory. Or even a 263 out of a 560, 656 or 706. It just seems like you will have a lot of machining expenses
in that engine.

I didn’t see your comment about boring it and using oversize rings. In an engine there is a set design clearance
between the piston and cylinder bore. It for one allows for different expansion rates between the two parts. The
clearance spec is kept as tight as possible to accommodate many other considerations between the relationship
of the piston and bore. One of these that applies to the scenario you are suggesting is holding the piston square
or parallel inside the cylinder in part for the rings to be able to maintain a seal against the cylinder wall. With the
suggestion you are proposing of over-boring the cylinder and using oversize piston rings to fit it, the rings just
won’t seal well enough with the piston rocking around inside the bore. Secondly, with all that additional
clearance the engine would be noisy, to the point of sounding like a diesel. And also high on the why not list,
with that much clearance the pistons and rings simply would not last long because they essentially would
hammer themselves apart. There is more to the list like heat transfer and imposed stress and on and on.

Thanks. I see what you are saying about the oversized rings. Guess I don't really know what is out there for used blocks and the cost. Then if it needs rebuilt then it costs more yet and I probably can't tell how good one is. I will have about 700 plus for rebuilding the head plus refacing the manifold and flywheel plus tax will put me at a grand. He thought it might take a couple grand for the block rebuild depending upon the price of parts. Then I get to spend about 300 for a clutch and 400 for a hydraulic pump. Ka-ching ka-ching

I can't repeat what my wife said when I told her this. Of course she is part of the problem because I can't find a complete set of sockets and wrenches anywhere around here so she must have moved them on me.

Thanks.

Hello guys. Just got a call from the machine shop. He can't find a source for a set of standard 3 9/16 inch pistons without having a set made for 1500 bux in 2 months. He can get the sleeves.

He cleaned up the block some. Says 2 cylinders would clean up and take .040 oversize pistons but we don't want to mix and match and he isn't sure about the others. Told him I would check with you guys.

Engine was a c-221 serial number 50541,as I recall, that must have been transplanted from possibly a 303 or earlier combine. If I have to buy the pistons then I can get the sleeves also. Rods were ok.I will check on rockauto.

Thanks for the help.

Before i would do all that machine work and expense I would go fing a used engine. All that expense youwould have more in motor than tractor
is worth. Just my 2 cents

I dont know how the compression heights match up, but, what about using 291 pistons from a 706 gas? Just bore the block to fit the 291 pistons. 3.75 bore

Thanks. I will check. He has to rebore the sleeves anyway. Been reading old posts and saw where some pistons from the larger engines has a different pin angle for the longer stroke. Jim the machine shop owner is going to be gone Monday so that will give me a chance to call around to the parts suppliers to find my options. I suppose I can see what is out there for a rebuilt short block such as a 263 or 291.

Here are a couple pics of what I assume are dome pistons and how much casting there is around the bottom of the piston. I was reading some old posts from Tractor Vet and others and apparently there are all kinds of match-up issues depending upon the pistons, machining clearances with cast or forged, and the 221 probably has smaller exhaust valves so they don't last as long. Good thing i won't be pulling a plow for 18 hours straight every day.

Also learned that combine engines are made to run at the same steady rpm to maintain the same threshing capacity while a tractor engine may run at lower rpms and presumably produce more torque.

Hello guys. Been calling around for pistons.

Have a basic dumb question. Is the piston in the photo a dome, step head, or firecrater piston? I have been calling it a dome cause it has that quarter moon bulge at the top but now I am not sure. Thanks. Britt.

Got another question. Stopped by the machine shop this afternoon. Jim was gone but we talked about boring a c221 sleeveless block approximately 90 thousands to take the c291 pistons which are 3.750. Is this possible to bore it that much? Thanks.

Been searching old posts. Found some pics by Dslater that would make mine with a raised portion and a dished portion as a IH firecrater. Although they were talking about something different than a c221. It appears the pistons are interchangeable. I will keep looking for pistons and also see how much it can be bored. Thanks.

Back to confusion again. Was looking at the jensales site and they call it a dish and dome piston.

They have a 3.5625 contoured dome piston, reliance number 7378602k, oem 378602r3, for 205, 303, 315 combines, 2606, 3616, and 606. 99 bux.

Also found a 3.5625 overbore dome top. Reliance number 7374319 that is listed for a c164, super H, super hv, super i4, super w4, and u164 industrial. 154 bux.

Anyone see any issues here.

Hello guys. Jensales has 3.5625 pistons for a c263. Will the 263 pistons go into the c221 once the machine shop gets the sleeves from melling or engine tech? Thanks.

Found some 3.5625 pistons here on the YT site. Sleeve and piston kit no. Pk177 for a c263 in a 656. 706, 2656, and 2706. Says they are a stepped head piston with a compression height of 2.2024 inches. Will these fit the head from the sleeveless c221? Thanks

Let me muddy up the water. The head on a 460,560,660 gas has a larger chamber than any other head. It was used on these engines only. All other engines used a smaller chamber. Your engine would be the small chamber which is a good thing. the c221 engine has a shorter stroke than the 263,291,301 so to change pistons to anything else you would have to change the crank also. In the past 15 years I have built a dozen of these engines from 50hp to 115hp. I agree it would be best to get a complete engine out of something like a combine to start with. Then you would have all the parts you would need and maybe be able to get a low hour engine that runs just fine for low bucks. Jim L.

Thanks Jim.I see what you are saying but I wouldn't think I would need to change the crank unless I wanted the extra horses but I can look around and maybe find a sleeved 263 block which would take my rebuilt head.

Went by the machine shop and we measured the compression height on my 221 pistons. Center of pin bore to top of the piston flat was 2.364 inches which is 0.340 thousands taller than the 2.024 height of the pistons YT has in their PK177 kit for the 656, 706, etc. Height of my piston from center of pin bore to top of the dome is 2.7375 inches. Not sure skirt length is too big of an issue.

I will keep looking but if a piston that is shorter by .340 without losing too much horsepower or compression then I can live with that. Some of these sales houses don't list the compression height.

I'm getting an education here.. My pistons, part number 398602R4, have a Z in the corner on one side of the skirt which I assume stands for Zollner who made the firecrater pistons. I wonder if they call them contoured dome and dish pistons because of trademark issues. Thanks

I don't have any books in front of me. But the .340 is about the difference between a c221 and a 263,291,301 stroke. Yes you would loose compression ratio and horse so bad it would probably not even start. If you stay with that crank you must stay with a c221 piston. If you change the crank you can go 263,291,301. With or without sleeves. The c301 never had sleeves. The pullers have bored that block out to 4" and some even bigger. When I say you have to stay with the c221 piston I mean to buy something standard. You can have anything custom made. Which you wouldn't want to do. Nor would I. $$$$$

Hello guys. Have an update. Finally got a quote from Egge machine co. in California after I sent them an old piston and pin three weeks ago. 1800 bux to make 6 firecrater/countoured dome and dish pistons. They had rings to go .060 oversize so they will have them in 8 to 10 weeks. Guess that gives me more time to look around for some. Machine shop here had cleaned up the block and some were at .040 but a couple were more so they just bored them all to .060 and now I won't need sleeves. Told them I hope I don't have to put it back together in a blizzard. Getting expensive but I'm committed.

OK guys. Just wanted to close out this thread with an update.
cancelled my order to build pistons and I'm in business. Got a C301 crank from Abilene Machine yesterday with a .010/.010 regrind for 550 bux. Traded in the old one from the C221 to avoid the 100 buck core charge. Called around and the going price seemed to be about 650 for a used crank of unknown condition. Both Abilene and my machine shop get 200 bux for a regrind as well. Tractor asap showed they had a reman for 500 but I think that was just a teaser ad cause they didn't have one. One place in Michigan had a few regrinds from around 470 and up with another 109 in shipping. Saw a used one in Maine for 200 but I'm happy with what I got and Abilene Machine is only a 45 minute drive from here. That is a big place.

As I've been told the same block and rods are used for the 221, 263, 291, and 301. The 263, 291, and 301 use the same crank. I looked at the crank out of my 221 and the number was 367266R1 which is only one number off from one of the 301 crank numbers (367267R1). When I looked the number up for mine it shows it comes off of a D-236 and no mention of a C221. Don't have any idea how the diesel crank got in there except the 301 crank is supposed to fit the DT282, D292, D301 and the DT301 as well since they use the same block also.

Since I just bot a 17 gpm pump for 340, a clutch kit for 345, and buying the overhaul kit with the 301 pistons for 685, they gave me the crank for the 550.

Got a grand in rebuilding the head and resurfacing the manifold and flywheel. Will find out what the boring and putting the block back together will cost. I need to go find a money tree real quick.

Thanks for all the help. Going to a 301 is much better than spending the 1800 to make new pistons.

Now my next two projects. Might tear into the forward/reverser to see what is wrong and do my 65,000 paint job. The kind where it will look like a new one when your driving down the highway at 65 mph with the tractor about a thousand feet away. Won't be showroom quality, that is for sure.