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Need some technical information

Ellis Kinney

Ellis Kinney

Well-known Member
Location
Northern Ky. 30 miles Southeast of Cincinnati
Replacing brake seal cage on a Farmall M. My new/used cage arrived this morning. I do not know how to measure for spacers. The bearing surface is inside the casting and the spacers go on the outside of the casting on the flange. not sure what kind of an instrument I need to measure the distance in thousandths and transfer the measurement from inside to outside. I need to get this correct the 1st time. Maybe I should find a machine shop. I thought I knew it all.
Thanks, Ellis
 

Pick a reference, like the far end of the cage and then measure to the two faces (bearing contact face and rear end housing contact face) take the difference and then compare this to your old one.
 
Use a depth caliper or depth micrometer and measure to the two faces from your reference edge.

Whatever the difference is between the two cages will have to be made up for in the shims.
 
ooh boy, you a dial indicator and some Prussian blue gear marking compound, actually yellow now. but, you will need to assemble the cage with those shims you took out to see where you are so you can get a starting point. the backlash should be .008-.0012. you use the marking compound to get your proper gear mesh pattern. you want the contact pattern at the toe of the gear , then under a load the pattern will move towards the heel of the tooth.
but since you are just replacing the cage just do the checks, the backlash and gear tooth contact. then go from there if things are out of wack . you don't want to be changing the pattern once gears are worn in , as you will get a gear howl. its not like your starting from scratch replacing the crown and pinion. YOU need a manual to follow through the steps for differential setup.
 
ooh, I just realized that you don't have the differential cover off. you could measure the old cage width and compare with the replacement cage. if both are the same you should be ok .could measure with a large micrometer which you wont have. put those same shims in and go from there . might be able to reach in from pto hole to feel for backlash.
 
Install the cage with NO shims, evenly SNUG up the bolts until there's no endplay in the bearings.

Measure the gap where the shims go with feeler gauges.

Once you have that "zero" measurement, add shims equal to that measurement, MINUS the "preload" spelled out in the shop manual.

(Pretty sure the bearings are "preloaded", if NOT and there's supposed to be ENDPLAY, you would ADD shims equal to the desired endpay to the measured thickness.)

At that point, you can measure the gearlash and see if it's "in spec".

If NOT, you move shims from left to right or right to left, as needed, to bring the "gear lash" into "spec".

That's the standard way to set up 'most ANY differential carrier bearings.
 
I have a feeling I am missing something here. I thought the question had to do with
brakes, but it seems we are talking about differential carrier bearings
Kris
 
Best way on those old tractors unless something is off excessive is to have the top off and measure the backlash of ring gear with a dial indicator to set back the same. There was enough left of your carrier housing to snug it back up and check. With how you are doing it you just as well use the original shims and hope the housings were machined the same. After you tighten it up reach up through pto hole and and make sure backlash is not to tight or way loose. Most used sets checked now have backlash over spec and run the best when kept the same. Thinking around .009 to .012 was in spec but would need to look it up to check my memory. Another option is to measure depth from pinion housing face to differential bearing machined face inside the pinion housing and compare old housing to replacement. If you have the stuff to measure and using the original differential bearing you can figure shims to go back like before.
 
The brakes and the differential are attached to the two ends of the same shaft, so it is the same thing to be discussed. My only experience with Prussian Blue was not a happy one, I was replacing the ring and pinion and never could get them not to howl at the time, but 8 years later they have gotten somewhat quieter.
Zach
 
(quoted from post at 16:13:12 02/20/20) Best way on those old tractors unless something is off excessive is to have the top off and measure the backlash of ring gear with a dial indicator to set back the same. There was enough left of your carrier housing to snug it back up and check. With how you are doing it you just as well use the original shims and hope the housings were machined the same. After you tighten it up reach up through pto hole and and make sure backlash is not to tight or way loose. Most used sets checked now have backlash over spec and run the best when kept the same. Thinking around .009 to .012 was in spec but would need to look it up to check my memory. Another option is to measure depth from pinion housing face to differential bearing machined face inside the pinion housing and compare old housing to replacement. If you have the stuff to measure and using the original differential bearing you can figure shims to go back like before.
Click to expand...

What is wrong with using the method I wrote about to get the bearings set up?

NO special tools (other than feeler gauges) are needed, and it's highly accurate if done carefully and you have the pre-load "spec" available?


Once the bearings are set up, it can be verified that the gear lash is reasonble.
 
Not saying that won't work. But the right side places how far the bevel gear is from the pinion. Most times less noise if you put
that distance back the same unless it's all messed up. left side is used to space side to side float of differential if right side
is in the correct place. Since the owner isn't removing the top and to late to measure backlash most of this is a moot point. Your
way or just trying the original shims is the best guess.
 
I agree on what you are saying. and putting original shims back is about as best as it will be without a tear down to do all the checks. you want the crown and pinion meshing the same as before. I am quite confident is he just has to put original shims in and all will be good.
 
Didn't think to add most well used ball bearing supported differential carriers will have a good bit of side to side float. If the right side is shimmed in on the tractor in question until all side to side play is removed there's a good chance the bevel gear will be deeper in the pinion than it was and maybe no backlash on some. Differential carrier bearings on a M have no preload.
 
it started out with brake removal and seal replacement. when unsure of the job and no manual to check for disassembly things go south in a hurry. its on his own dime though.
 
Thanks for all the comments. I really appreciate all the combined knowledge of this group. Here is what I did. I put a flat piece of steel across the bearing surface. I put a square block that reached slightly above the casting and measured down to the flange with a depth micrometer. This may not make any sense if you do not know what a brake seal cage looks like. I measured the distance several times at different places on the circumference and all measurements came up at less than one thousandth difference on the two castings. I was very surprised at this. I feel like I won the lottery. I will put it back together using old shims.
Thanks, Ellis
 
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