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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
:

New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking.

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jhncp

11-19-2019 05:47:52




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I want to figure out as much as I can B4 pulling head for 3rd time especially since head gasket cost $350. When I put air pressure in injection hole #1 it's easily leaking into coolant ( and prably slow drip into cylinder). Is there a way I can pinpoint where it's leaking if its head gasket or possibly cracked head by filling water jacket at 1/8" increments and testing or other ideas? I bought a inspection camera but think it was a big waste of money. Also is there any chance of it sealing if I retorque head with engine hot at Max 130 ft lb? Or will it make gasket less likely to reuse. I retirqued at 120 with engine cold since it requires taking rocker shaft off. Also how critical is the fire ring for sealing and does it butt tight and against head or have slight gap? I replaced the sleeves and it is a new head gasket. The #1 only fires when under a load warmed up so theres a pretty big loss of compression. No chance of hitting at high idle.

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D Slater

11-19-2019 08:33:50




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 Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. in reply to jhncp, 11-19-2019 05:47:52  
Unless I have my pictures mixed up, Think your gasket should fit like this and sleeve also for D-281 IH parts. If wrong I would need to go out and look at what I have to refresh memory. Search number 261339R92 or 87427495 for a upper gasket set. Have found them around 200 sometimes. Stieners shows a set for 220. Don't know what gasket they use. Dealer price should be less than 300. Maybe not much. Think I would remove head and have it pressure tested and go from there unless you can see were the head gasket leaked. Probably would still pressure check.

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jhncp

11-21-2019 05:42:11




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 Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. in reply to D Slater, 11-19-2019 08:33:50  
Im almost certain I have the head gasket on the same way you have it pictured and almost certain thats right but not 100%. It doesn't say this side up . It does have numbers and I have the numbers up.



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D Slater

11-21-2019 16:48:39




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 Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. in reply to jhncp, 11-21-2019 05:42:11  
53436DE gasket was marked bottom side. Part numbers on side that reads bottom. Only thing I can see different as to side up or down on that gasket is a copper ring only on one side of gasket at the 4 metered coolant holes about 5/16 diameter in gasket and a lot bigger in the block. Other thing is at the bores the metal has the crimp ending on one side of the metal sides of the gasket. Need to look again to be sure on what way, looked this morning and already not sure I remember correct. Think the bore crimp ended on the top side and also the copper rings. If wrong I will post back when I recheck.

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jhncp

11-22-2019 05:07:19




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 Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. in reply to D Slater, 11-21-2019 16:48:39  
Think my head gasket was reliant and don't recall it saying bottom. Also think it was same as my old one I'm looking at. I have mine same as your picture with flatter side of ring up and the part number up. It's all confusing with crimped side or rolled side down. How does one know whats what.



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D Slater

11-22-2019 07:50:59




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 Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. in reply to jhncp, 11-22-2019 05:07:19  
Looked at a new McCord gasket. Made like the IH 53436DE but has top on it. Same as the IH wider crimps to top and wider copper band to top of small coolant holes to bigger head holes. Those are steel sided gaskets with material between. Last one case IH was selling doesn't have metal sides. # 119166A1 part of head set 87427495. Only metal rings are at the sleeves and oil holes. Not marked top or bottom and I can't see anything to work different turned up or down. This may be the type gasket you have because it looks like a regular aftermarket gasket with there package. Looks like the block and head better be flat to use it without sealer around the coolant openings.

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D Slater

11-20-2019 16:49:46




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 Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. in reply to D Slater, 11-19-2019 08:33:50  
Does your sleeve look like this one? In the picture above post that's a 53436DE head gasket sitting on the sleeve and how it fits. Head gasket number 53436DE was made by Victor, # V 1705. Stand out for lower part of sleeve .000 to .006 and better below .006.



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D Slater

11-20-2019 16:52:32




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 Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. in reply to D Slater, 11-20-2019 16:49:46  
Picture didn't make it.



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The tractor vet

11-19-2019 18:42:33




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 Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. in reply to D Slater, 11-19-2019 08:33:50  
Like pete said . and i will agree with him . Ya know it is really hard for us to give perfect answers since we are not there with hands on . Here is what i would be checking and would have done the first time the head came off. First i would have had the head pressure tested HOT , not many places will do this as i had to teach the guy that does my machine work now since my buddy passed away . The NEw way they do it at most all shops at times does not show a leak BUT you heat it up and some times they look like old faithful . Next i would have a true straight edge on that block and checking the sleeves for proper settings . Next up are you 100% sure your torque wrench is dead on , when was the last time you had it recalibrated ?? Now had you said that you were getting water on number 2 or 3 then i would be looking for a cracked block down in the bore on both of them as this is sorta common . Some times you will have a miss that goes along with a cracked head or block . Your working on a tractor that is probably older then you are and sometimes it takes us old farts that have been there and done that to weed out problems . Myself i had a 450 D many moons ago that when i bought it it had issues that needed sorted out . They have not made parts for that engine for a long time and other then NOS parts you have a problem finding parts . Victor Gskt made the org. head gskt along with all the rest . If you were in my back yard then i could come and take a look and see and know more as to your problem but looking at pictures really does not tell me much.

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jhncp

11-20-2019 06:10:42




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 Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. in reply to The tractor vet, 11-19-2019 18:42:33  
Thanks for the tip head should be hot to test. That might be a key. I plan on retorquing when hot but most likely will be pulling head this weekend. I imagine its unlikely the hot retorque will resolve it if it's leaking that bad ah?



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the tractor vet

11-20-2019 15:41:04




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 Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. in reply to jhncp, 11-20-2019 06:10:42  
YUP , myself like i said earlier i would be looking else where for the problem . You can also use the poor man magnflux test looking for cracks and that is clean up the head nice and clean then with a can of starting fluid spray the head down and watch as it dries any crack will stay wet longer . You can make up your own pressure test of your head with making up blocking plates and rubber sheet gskt material and a way of clamping them over the water passages and a blocking plate to cover the thermostat housing once you remove it and you make a adapter so you can fill with water and apply air pressure of around 20 psi and warn the head to around 180 to 190 degrees . We use to do this with the steam cleaner running really hot water thru it till we got the temp then fill with hot water and pressure it up . IF there was a leaking crack you found it . Also we did this with a bare head that was cleaned .

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Pete 23

11-19-2019 06:47:42




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 Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. in reply to jhncp, 11-19-2019 05:47:52  
I will try to avoid controversy here. Not easy sometimes. I do not believe your idea will work to raise coolant level a little at a time.

I believe you are doomed and have to pull head again. You have two potential problems. Cracked eroded head or (very likely) head gasket not sealing on sleeve flange. Flange too low or too high or wrong gasket. Like I indicated before, mix ups on those gaskets has been a problem .

Maybe Slater will chime in. Very knowlegable.

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jhncp

11-19-2019 07:15:10




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 Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. in reply to Pete 23, 11-19-2019 06:47:42  
What is your comment on rustred saying a retorque is a must when hot. I only retorqued cold



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rustred

11-19-2019 18:59:54




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 Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. in reply to jhncp, 11-19-2019 07:15:10  
I think you need to get some experience and tools on engine overhauls. I also agree with pete and the vet. where did u come up with the thing about a cold retorque.? how can u just eye up sleeve stand out.?? I overhauled a super wd6, same basic engine, in the late 1970's when I was about 20 years old. i put the head gasket on dry and started the tractor and she was leaking water out from the gasket. I run it to operating temp. retorqued the head and she never leaked after that. I am using this as an example as you questioning retorquing hot. how else are you to do it? by the time you get the valve cover off and rocker the engine is not burn your hands workable. it appears you have skipped many steps. I been working on these old ih engines all my life. my posting is not pulled out of the sky, .. but hands on stuff. what works and what don't.

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jhncp

11-20-2019 06:08:07




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 Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. in reply to rustred, 11-19-2019 18:59:54  
I always retorqued head bolts on a 560d when hot but on this one since the rocker has to come off I just rechecked torque when cold after I had a few drops of antifreeze come out oil plug. Plus I didn't know if it was really nessecary on a 450 since it has big studs with fine threaded nut and so many of them and a high torque to begin with. Seems a lot more beefed up than a 560. I just know the flange was a few thousanths above head deck.

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rustred

11-20-2019 18:21:04




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 Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. in reply to jhncp, 11-20-2019 06:08:07  
how do you know? u need a dial indicator and measure each sleeve stand out.



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jhncp

11-21-2019 05:48:37




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 Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. in reply to rustred, 11-20-2019 18:21:04  
Thanks. I do have a dial indicater with magnetic base. I never thought of that. I was thinking a depth mic.



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rustred

11-19-2019 06:20:28




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 Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. in reply to jhncp, 11-19-2019 05:47:52  
don't have eye's on the project and don't know how and what was actually done. but yes a retorque is a must when hot. have u checked the sleeve stand out? must be the same throughout. guessing at a spec of .007 max. that is how the fire ring seals. pretty sure the head gasket is reuseable if you just put it on. but need to check it also. did you have the head magnafluxed and valves done? plus is block and head spotless clean and flat? plus is this an old problem or came up once assembled? if it was leaking like you say you would not keep the cap on it would basically blow the coolant out the overflow. requires a tear down and close inspection as the leaking spot will show. could also be a crack.

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pete 23

11-19-2019 13:29:56




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 Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. in reply to rustred, 11-19-2019 06:20:28  
I always retorqued after warming engine. Also, if you remove rockers, you need to run it a minute or two after adjusting the valve clearance as you will be sure to have one or two that change considerably.



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jhncp

11-19-2019 13:25:51




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 Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. in reply to rustred, 11-19-2019 06:20:28  
If it is leaking out the head gasket how will I see that with close examination with head off? (Assuming the head gasket will prably still be intact)



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jhncp

11-19-2019 07:12:51




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 Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. in reply to rustred, 11-19-2019 06:20:28  
It had been a problem on #1 for many years with low compression but I was certain it was the rings. (I put all new rings in). I thought the sleeve flange above head deck looked good. Does the gasket mainly seal on sleeve flange or does it also seal on block? (Referring to the ring on the gasket) also how much does the fire ring on the sleeve do?



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rustred

11-19-2019 19:24:38




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 Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. in reply to jhncp, 11-19-2019 07:12:51  
the fire ring is the most important part in the head gasket. it seals the combustion from the cyl's. plus the gasket has to seal the antifreeze between head and block, plus also has to seal the oil passages. so its function is sealing three things. so you want to buy a good gasket . you want surfaces spotless and FLAT. that is my explanation of the gasket. so have you checked the compression to know that it is low on #1 cyl.??? usually valves are more to do with a noticeable loss of compression . when u have the head off take the gasket and place it on the block and look things over to answer your question about the fire rings and sleeves. there is tell tale signs left behind of the leakages.

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