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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
:

3444 loader sputters when curling bucket

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Cpenn

09-09-2019 17:51:19




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I recently got my 3444 hydraulic leaks fixed on the rear end plus changed every o-ring on the hydraulic control under the seat. Hydraulics seem to be running decent now, and the 3 pt now stays up. https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=1397552&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Although the bucket lifts up fine, the engine sputters and works hard to simply curl the buck up or down (empty bucket). If I try and curl the bucket while driving, it nearly stalls out. Keep in mind that this is the first loader that I have ever owned, so I do not know what is normal.
Is there a way I can test to see if this is a problem with power, or if it is a problem in the hydraulics? I just bought this tractor two months ago and was reworking the rear end to stop it from leaking hydraulic fluid, so I have yet to do the normal tune up for an old tractor that was previously stored outside. I still need to change the plugs, wires, distributor cap, points, fuel filter, rebuild carb, etc. So it is possible that this could simply be a power issue in that regard. But I was curious if anyone knew how I could do a test to find if this was a power or governor issue, or if it is a problem in the hydraulics system. This loader has two hydraulic pumps. Any thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks!

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Cpenn

10-29-2019 13:32:45




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 Re: 3444 loader sputters when curling bucket in reply to Cpenn, 09-09-2019 17:51:19  
I bet you can find the seals and o-rings that you need. I replaced a pile of O-rings and seals on the rear end side of the hydraulics, and none were listed specifically for the 3444. I have the parts manual and sometimes it would provide the size of the o-rings, but not the seals. If not, a good rubber shop in town here was able to match the o-rings when I brought them in.
For the seals, if I could not read the number off of the seal, I would take all of the proper measurements and look through the SKF seal catalog and find one that matched. Then look for it online or from NAPA or O-Reily's Auto Parts. If you don't have a parts manual, take look at this, its for the 2444, but most of the parts are the same:

https://partstore.caseih.com/us/parts-search.html#epc::mr50024ag53104

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shyink

10-28-2019 14:00:35




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 Re: 3444 loader sputters when curling bucket in reply to Cpenn, 09-09-2019 17:51:19  
I read about the shaving creme trick on another post. I am getting air in the system somewhere on the suction side of my hydraulics. So one trick to track it down is to put shaving creme on all the suction side fittings to see if it disappears. Unfortunately I found my problem. Actually the tractor did it for me. Suddenly while operating the machine I got a ton of black smoke coming off the engine. It was oil coming out of the breather on top of the motor. I pulled the dipstick and a stream of oil came out the dipstick hole. Turns out I blew the seals in my hydraulic power steering pump. It pumped hydraulic fluid into the timing gear area filling the entire motor with hydraulic fluid. What a mess. I pulled the pump apart and two o-rings and the double lipped shaft seal were blown. Of course there are no parts available, only new replacement pumps. $700. Hate to buy a new pump when only maybe $20 in parts could fix it. Bummer. Good news is, it was hydraulic fluid so it won't hurt the motor. Always got to look at the bright side.

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Cpenn

10-28-2019 12:35:22




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 Re: 3444 loader sputters when curling bucket in reply to Cpenn, 09-09-2019 17:51:19  
Great pics, must have been quite gratifying to get that engine running again.

Please tell me what the shaving cream trick is, I'd love to hear this!

Thanks



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shyink

10-24-2019 08:36:41




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 Re: 3444 loader sputters when curling bucket in reply to Cpenn, 09-09-2019 17:51:19  
Thanks for all your information. I am in the exact same situation as you (Cpenn). Just picked up a 3444 with engine and hydraulic issues. Fixed the engine problem. Believe it or not I was able to clean up the head and with one new valve, some cylinder honing got it working. Will need rings and guides eventually. Can't believe how much they want for valve guides. You are lucky the valve broke loose. As for the hydraulics, it sounds like cavitation issue. Can't track that one down as of yet. Hydraulic system is loud and sounds like a fire pump sucking air. Going to try the shaving creme trick as mentioned on another post. Please keep your progress posts coming, they are great!



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Cpenn

09-18-2019 06:08:46




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 Re: 3444 loader sputters when curling bucket in reply to Cpenn, 09-09-2019 17:51:19  
For future folks that might be looking at this thread, I feel it necessary to clarify that the photo with the pink string is NOT the step taken with regard to stuffing the rope into the cylinder during the process of spring assembly removal. I do not have a photo of that step. The pink string attached to the valve stem in that photo was attached to hold the valve up while I removed the rope in the cylinder, so that I could test how well the cylinder held air when I placed an air nozzle from my air compressor at the spark plug hole. Pink string kept the valve from falling down in when the spring assembly was removed, and rope removed from cylinder. By forcing air into the cylinder, I could test how well the valve could actually plug the hole. It worked, as the compressed air started to move the piston and turn the fan.

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Cpenn

09-16-2019 10:43:28




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 Re: 3444 loader sputters when curling bucket in reply to Cpenn, 09-09-2019 17:51:19  
Mission accomplished. I tapped and tapped. And sprayed and sprayed. Then tapped more. So then I gave up on that after a couple days and got a valve spring compressor, meant to remove the spring with the head still on. Borrowed one from the local auto parts store. But they are made for smaller valve springs. Would not fit.
So stuffed a rope down into the cylinder hole while piston was at BDC, left it sticking out and tied it off. Then rotate crank until near TDC to scrunch the rope up to the bottom of the valve. The rope keeps the valve from falling down into the cylinder when the valve spring assembly is removed. After removing the rocker arm assembly, the valve assembly was next. This next part required two people. I placed the box end of a 1" wrench over top of the spring assembly, compressing the spring but with the valve stem held up by the rope. The second person then used a magnet to quickly grab the keepers that retain the valve stem to the spring.
With the valve assembly off, I could rotate the valve stem. I kept putting ATF on it, and then attached a cordless drill to the valve stem and rotate it for a long time, forward and backward, while pulling the drill upward (i.e. pulling the valve shut). I would do this for a minute or so, and then take a measurement with digital calipers to see if I was getting the valve to come a little higher. It worked. There was at least 2 mm of carbon that was preventing that valve from closing. I knew it sealed well when it would make that hollow sound when pulling the valve up by hand to close it.

Put it all back together and had good compression. Cylinder is now firing. I have a "before" and "after" video. It sure sounds smooth with 4 cylinders running! Hopefully you can view the videos.

Thanks so much for everyone's help on this!

Chad





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Russ from MN

09-16-2019 20:07:49




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 Re: 3444 loader sputters when curling bucket in reply to Cpenn, 09-16-2019 10:43:28  
Congratulations, I knew you would get it, you are a determines person!



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Cpenn

09-13-2019 07:53:10




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 Re: 3444 loader sputters when curling bucket in reply to Cpenn, 09-09-2019 17:51:19  
I took the rocker arm assembly off. I believe it is the exhaust valve that is stuck open. It sits lower than all of the other springs with the rockers off. In the three valve/spring assemblies shown in the picture, it is the one in the middle. I been soaking it with ATF to drain down the stem. Did some tapping with a block of wood with no success.
I'm considering the old trick of stuffing rope down into the cylinder to support the valve, and then remove the valve spring. From there I will keep soaking and tapping, and try and rotate the valve slowly.
Any thoughts or suggestions?

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Russ from MN

09-13-2019 14:58:50




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 Re: 3444 loader sputters when curling bucket in reply to Cpenn, 09-13-2019 07:53:10  
Usually you can leave the spring in place, once the valve loosens a little, each time you tap it down the spring will push it back, and eventually it will close all the way. Are you using a hammer with the block of wood, you may have to hit it harder! If this doesn't work you will have to pull the head. Did it get some water down the exhaust to cause this problem?



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Cpenn

09-11-2019 17:45:01




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 Re: 3444 loader sputters when curling bucket in reply to Cpenn, 09-09-2019 17:51:19  
I found zero compression in that cylinder. Should I put compressed air into the spark plug hole at TDC and see which valve the air leaks out of? Or should I first check the valve clearance? I am hoping it is a valve and not something else.



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Russ from MN

09-12-2019 04:51:55




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 Re: 3444 loader sputters when curling bucket in reply to Cpenn, 09-11-2019 17:45:01  
Hopefully it's just a valve stuck open, pull the valve cover and check it out. If one of the valves is stuck open, put some penetrating oil (not WD-40) around the stem and carefully tap on the valve stem with a soft hammer.



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Cpenn

09-11-2019 07:18:43




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 Re: 3444 loader sputters when curling bucket in reply to Cpenn, 09-09-2019 17:51:19  
Great point. Will do. I imagine the specifications for valve clearance is the same on all of the International 134 engines? I don't have a service manual specifically for the engine, although that information might be in the owner's manual that I have, as valve adjustment may have been considered routine. If not, I bet I can find those numbers easily with on-line searching.

Thanks. I will let you know what I find after pulling off cover.

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Russ from MN

09-11-2019 14:20:32




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 Re: 3444 loader sputters when curling bucket in reply to Cpenn, 09-11-2019 07:18:43  
I think .015 would work, maybe a little less. It will run fine with a little more, have more power if set correctly.



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Cpenn

09-10-2019 18:26:37




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 Re: 3444 loader sputters when curling bucket in reply to Cpenn, 09-09-2019 17:51:19  
I just had another thought: could the intake valve be faulty and not allowing fuel into the cylinder?



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Russ from MN

09-10-2019 18:55:42




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 Re: 3444 loader sputters when curling bucket in reply to Cpenn, 09-10-2019 18:26:37  
Possibly, if the compression is near OK you could pull the valve cover and make sure the valves are opening and closing and have proper clearance, you should check that anyhow.



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Cpenn

09-10-2019 17:13:02




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 Re: 3444 loader sputters when curling bucket in reply to Cpenn, 09-09-2019 17:51:19  
Okay everyone, you all sure gave me a lot of wonderful wisdom. I did some investigating after work. No restrictions in hose size for the bucket compared to the boom (both reduce to a metal fitting, 1/2" outer diameter). So I started thinking about power.

I'll admit, I figured that a missing cylinder could be ruled out. I have restored four antique tractors and have heard missing cylinders. But I did my due diligence anyway. Guess what? I was wrong this time. I pulled off wires one at a time (I felt the jolt from the cracks on every single one of them). Cylinder 3 made no difference when I pulled it off. So I hooked up my spark tester to the boot and found that it indeed had juice (which I already knew from being shocked). I have to admit, it does not sound bad at all for only running on 3 cylinders!

So then I changed the spark plug with an old AL 435 that I had. I don't believe that there was a change. Then I arced both of the spark plugs on the block to make sure that they were both good, and they both produced visible spark.

At this point, my thought is that I have spark, but not good, hot spark. I have found in the past that makes a big difference. I am now thinking that I should replace the wires, plugs, cap, and perhaps distributor tune up. What do you think?

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Russ from MN

09-10-2019 18:36:57




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 Re: 3444 loader sputters when curling bucket in reply to Cpenn, 09-10-2019 17:13:02  
I would check compression before I buy a lot of parts, you might have a valve stuck open.



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Russ from MN

09-10-2019 07:32:07




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 Re: 3444 loader sputters when curling bucket in reply to Cpenn, 09-09-2019 17:51:19  
My first thought is that it's running too lean, the way you describe it sounds like a gas engine, so try opening up the high speed adjustment if so equipped. It also could be missing, as someone else described, try pulling of the plug wires one at a time to see if it's running on all cylinders. Also it could be a cracked distributor cap, spray the inside with WD-40 and wipe out the excess, that will fix it temporarily. Don't go buying a bunch of parts until you do some troubleshooting! Good luck, and report back with your findings!

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Bob

09-10-2019 06:49:23




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 Re: 3444 loader sputters when curling bucket in reply to Cpenn, 09-09-2019 17:51:19  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

It sure sounds like your engine is down on power.

Even with any of the hydraulic functions' cylinders fully extended or retracted, if you would continue to hold the lever, you should be hearing the hydraulics squeal in protest, and the engine should bark a bit but not stall.

The other thing to check (before it's too late) is that the hydraulic relief valve is functioning and set to the recommended PSI.

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LPakiz

09-10-2019 06:28:34




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 Re: 3444 loader sputters when curling bucket in reply to Cpenn, 09-09-2019 17:51:19  
Another thing to consider is, "what diameter are the curl cylinders" as unusually small diameter cylinders will move really fast, but demand lots of horsepower to do that.

Also related is, if the bucket curls really fast due to small cylinders, you will not have a lot of force on the curl function.

So, how fast does the bucket curl?
If you interchange the hose sets and the problem follows the hoses, that only rules out the valve itself. Still can be restrictive hoses, fittings or abnormally small cylinders.

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BarnyardEngineering

09-10-2019 06:23:19




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 Re: 3444 loader sputters when curling bucket in reply to Cpenn, 09-09-2019 17:51:19  
One common thing I see with new tractor owners is that they can't tell when their tractor is not running on all cylinders. I don't know if they think all old tractors are supposed to sound like a "Johnny Popper" but they don't. 4-cylinder engines should sound like a sewing machine while running, very smooth.

If your tractor is making a "chugga-chugga" noise while running normally, it's missing on at least one cylinder, and it will be REALLY down on power.

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jimb2

09-10-2019 05:00:49




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 Re: 3444 loader sputters when curling bucket in reply to Cpenn, 09-09-2019 17:51:19  
Would appear to be a restriction somewhere in the bucket hydraulic circuit, is there any easy way to switch the hydraulic ports out of the loader hydraulic valve with the ports for the boom? Are they the Quick Connect couples or are they direct hydraulic pipe connected to the loader hydraulic valve?



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Phil Tibbetts

09-09-2019 18:35:10




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 Re: 3444 loader sputters when curling bucket in reply to Cpenn, 09-09-2019 17:51:19  
What size are the lines going to the bucket curl? Sounds like you may have too small line which is acting as a restriction.



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