3444 hydraulics mystery

Cpenn · Jun 17, 2019

Hi everyone, I recently bought a 3444 with a loader and 3pt (no backhoe). This has two pumps: one for the loader and another for 3 pt and power steering (from what I understand). Regular mechanical clutch transmission.

Before buying it, I inspected it thoroughly, no major leaks, hydraulics worked fine, ran it awhile, etc. Putting it on a trailer and hauling it 100 miles was hard on it. An appreciable leak appeared and pump started whining. Simply tightened the hose that was leaking to stop the leak.

While there are different variations of the 3444, according to the manual, the transmission and hydraulic reservoir are one single unit. The tiny dipstick located in front of the gear shifter showed no fluid on it, so I added Hy-Tran to bring the level up. Loader cylinders were retracted when I did this, 3 point was up, and the "isolation valve" was in "open" position. Started it up, and worked the air out of the system by lifting bucket several times. Worked great. Whining stopped and all was fine.

Next morning I find a puddle of fluid on the floor, from two new leaks, which appeared to be coming from both brake cylinder drums (it has brakes geared to the axle, not on the axle itself), which suggests that the seals for that shaft are shot on both sides. I need to change the brakes so I will confirm this soon.

Here is the interesting thing. I noticed that the 3 point also dropped down to bottom overnight. Perhaps that is normal since the isolation valve was in the "open" position. I then checked the fluid level: it showed over-filled. I start it up again and work the loader up and down. When the 3 point is in the bottom position, no pump whining. When I raise the 3 point and lift the bucket, there is lots of whining. I turn off the tractor and check the fluid again with the 3 point still raised. It barely registers any fluid on the stick. I drop the 3 point to see if that changes the level in the dipstick. It did not. Turn it on again, raise the 3 point and turn tractor off. Fluid on dipstick still read near nothing. This morning, the same observation is made: 3 point dropped down and fluid level now reads over-filled.

Does anyone have any ideas about what is happening? Fluid is milky with moisture, but I want to fix the leaks and any other hydraulic issues before I replace the fluid and filter.

Thanks!
Chad

caterpillar guy · Jun 17, 2019

Some of those tractors have to be run a few minutes then shutoff before checking oil level.

Bob Bancroft · Jun 17, 2019

I can't tell you what's going on. I will say that with that contaminated oil in there all bets are off. I had a 3444 TLB. As I recall the oil filler was right next to the gear shift. That was also the breather. Is your breather clear? Mine would push oil up out there, so I made that tube taller.

JimB2 · Jun 17, 2019

Hi Chad, if you could post a couple photos of the hydraulic setup on your 3444 then we can explain how it works.
Photo of the hydraulic connections at the front of the seat and another photo of connections under the seat.

Re 3pt leaking down over night, either the 3pt lift cylinder is leaking or the 3pt lift control valve is leaking.
If you close the isolator valve with 3pt in up position and it leaks down then it is the 3pt lift cylinder leaking.

Re oil leaking from brake housing, that is dried out or worn seals on the brake pinion shaft, you have to lift hydraulic housing off to fix.
Sometimes adding a stop seal leak oil additive will fix it. Old IH mechanic always recommend the one made by Lucas.

Cpenn · Jun 18, 2019

(quoted from post at 00:24:26 06/18/19) Some of those tractors have to be run a few minutes then shutoff before checking oil level.

Coincidentally, I just found a similar statement in the manual last night. It stated that you must run the machine, then shut it off and measure the level immediatelly. If you wait too long, then it will syphon back from the hitch housing to the transmission housing where the dipstick is located.

Cpenn · Jun 18, 2019

Guys, you all ask good questions. I only have one picture that shows part of it with me at this time. See the attached photo.
Offhand, I can tell you this: the filter is located to the left of the gear shifter. I have not yet removed it.

I am not sure where the breather is. There is a tube located next to the gear shifter that sticks up out of the housing about 4 inches. It is located near the dipstick. There is a small hole in the top of it that is open. My guess is that is the breather? Previously, I un-thread a fitting at the top of this in order to add fluid.

In this picture, you can see the the vertical tube that I suspect is the breather. The tiny dipstick is too small to be seen in this picture, but it is about where the green wire is. The filter house is also not visible in the photo. I'm travelling for the next two days. When I return I will take some photos and post.

Thanks!

JimB2 · Jun 18, 2019

Hi Chad, excellent you are reading the manual. I can see enough of the hydraulic connections that it has a plate under the seat with 2 hydraulic connections, one is the hydraulic suction line from transmission
to the front pump and the other is the hydraulic return line from the front pump.

Read this post: https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=1393470&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Re Bull Pinion shaft seals leaking see: https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=1377566&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=jimb2&start=0

Safe travels
JimB

Kerplooey · Jun 19, 2019

JimB2 beat me to it, but I just got through doing my bull pinion seals about a month or so ago. It's a job, but I did both in a weekend, working about 8 hours a day on them. There's a couple of links that Jim provided in that thread, which I used extensively having never done it before. Also, check out Dave's Canadian Redneck Channel on youtube. He has several videos on breaking down a 414, which are helpful. If you have any questions on that part, we'll all be glad to help out!

Cpenn · Jun 21, 2019

Thanks guys, I was in Iowa, talking to farmers about nutrient management. Pretty country in central Iowa. Anyway, this is very helpful, and those links are great.

I have some clearer pics for you all to see of the hydraulic system. It looks the same to me as Kerplooey. I lifted the 3pt last night and then closed the valve labeled as "open" or "shut". It still dropped overnight. Could this be due to the nasty leak at the bull pinion seal?

Based on the links to the threads that you posted, it seems that the only way to change the bull pinion seal is to lift the the cover for the hydraulics under the seat? But at least I won't have to pull the axle? Is that correct? If so, I might as well replace all the O-rings in the hydraulics cover. Hopefully I can find a rebuild kit for that cover.

Thanks!

JimB2 · Jun 21, 2019

Those two hydraulic pipes under the seat confirms that the front pump is using the trans/diff case as the hydraulic reservoir, see link to caseih.com parts.
The suction line in the plate under the seat fits into another pipe with a sealing O-ring that sticks down into the diff to suck the hydraulic oil out of the trans/diff case this the reason that the trans/diff
case has to be full up to the dipstick level. I believe the return pipe just dumps the oil into the regular hydraulic reservoir under the seat but the second pipe going into the trans/diff case is a stand pipe
and that establishes the hydraulic oil level in the 3pt reservoir under the seat so any excess flows into the trans/diff case. Hope this explanation is as clear as mud.

Re 3pt going down with Isolator valve Shut Off, that is almost 100% problem with 3pt lift cylinder seals or piston scoring. See Canadian Redneck youtube how to remove the 3pt cylinder when you have the
hydraulic housing off to replace the bull pinion seals. Kerplooey can assist you with the seal replacement.
2444 Loader Front pump under seat

Cpenn · Jun 21, 2019

This is great stuff. I'm headed out for a couple of weeks and will tackle it when I get back after reading through all of this in great detail, along with parts diagrams.

Cpenn · Jul 15, 2019

I'm finally back on this project. I drained the fluid (according to the method in the manual, jacked up front end, open bucket, etc..), removed fenders, and removed the brake drum on one side, plus the bolts that hold the carrier for the bearing. Found myself prying on it after that and realized that is exactly what others had done incorrectly! So I went back and read in more detail, the work from Kerplooey and others and remembered that the axle has to come off first. I'll pull the axle after removing the hydraulic cover.

Here is my question: in removing the hydraulic cover, there is a hydraulic pipe that terminates on the front of the cover. See the photo. I circled the point of interest. How does that come off, and how is it held in there? There is a small L bracket held on by one of the cover bolts that wedges it on. Is that all? Beside that is it just a gasket sealant that keeps it sealed?

Thanks

Kerplooey · Jul 15, 2019

I'm not real familiar with the intricacies of this model, but on a 400 series, that is the where the return or suction screen lives. It pretty much just pushes in and is held in place via a small L bracket that is bolted with one of the hydraulic unit hold down bolts. Hopefully someone with more model experience can verify.

Cpenn · Jul 15, 2019

Okay, what you describe appears to be exactly what I have. Thanks for that. I just wanted to be sure before I started pulling on things.

Cpenn · Jul 15, 2019

In case others are following along or can use this in the future, I am going to document the process. I can say that the work/photos that others have posted on this site and elsewhere has been extremely helpful to me.

To start, first is the nasty Hy-tran that was drained out. Looked like coffee with cream. Second photo is the top of hydraulics cover with seat removed, return line pipe connection removed. Last is brake drum removed and the outside of the carrier and the bull pinion shaft that I am after. Don't pry on it like I did! Axle must come off first. Great video by Canadian Redneck on how to remove the axle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXSLhr9aybU

Cpenn · Jul 19, 2019

I managed to get the tub off. The pipe/tube in question was indeed held in by a small L-bracket. It is sealed with two O-rings. It was a major pain to get out because of the geometry. The tub had to be lifted very high because of the long sump pipe, but this high lifting then pulled that pipe in an odd manner that was not conducive to being able to pull it out. Finally got it out. It also required a digging bar and a baby sledge to break the seal.

Take a look at the bull gear. Notice that there is no bolt that hold the axle on. Instead, there is only what appears to be a snap ring. There is a threaded hole (on both sides) where it looks like a bolt could go. Does anyone have any thoughts on that? Should I simply remove the snap ring, unbolt the hub, and tap the axle out?

Thanks

Cpenn · Jul 19, 2019

What do you guys think about removing that axle? Is that unusual to not have a bolt at the axle-bull gear connection (see previous photo)? Like I said, there is only a snap ring. Please let me know if you have any thoughts or ideas.

Thanks!

JeffPhillips · Jul 21, 2019

i think a 3414 is the same differential at the 3444, so here's is a photo of the inside of mine. A word of caution though, the axle on mine didn't "tap" out. It required an 8lb sledge to beat it out. It was less than fun to remove.

JeffPhillips · Jul 21, 2019

Cpenn · Jul 22, 2019

Yes, I think so. Mine has snap rings instead for some reason, but the axle is threaded to receive a bolt.

I took the snap ring off, removed the wheel and unbolted the hub. Surprisingly, the axle came out very easily, tapping on the hub with a rubber mallet. Getting the wheel off was much more difficult than that. I hope the that the other side is that easy. Pulled out the PTO shaft. Then easily shifted the bull gear to allow for removal of carrier.

Cpenn · Jul 22, 2019

While I'm in here, I decided to change the axle seal as well. Why not? Somehow, during removal I managed to only tap on the parts of the seal that have writing. So it is nearly impossible to make out the numbers. Normally I just take the number to NAPA and they can find the fit. Not legible this time.

Does anyone have any other suggestions for things that should be replaced or inspected while I have it tore apart? I'll do a good cleaning with diesel as previously suggested.

Thanks,
Chad

Cpenn · Jul 22, 2019

Jim,

Now that I have this thing tore apart, I can understand what you were saying about the hydraulic flow lines, reservoir, syphoning, etc.

Since one of my problems was the 3 pt dropping overnight, even with the isolation valve shut, are you suggesting that the piston in the control valve (#77 in the diagram) or the associated O-rings (#33, 35, 36) are a problem?

JeffPhillips · Jul 23, 2019

may as well do the seals in the pull pinion carriers while you are there. They aren't very expensive, and are very easy to replace.

Cpenn · Jul 30, 2019

(quoted from post at 20:56:17 07/23/19) may as well do the seals in the pull pinion carriers while you are there. They aren't very expensive, and are very easy to replace.

Quick question: I am installing the bull pinion shaft seal into the carrier housing, and as far as I can tell, the only way it can be installed is from the "lip" side of the seal. Is that correct? If so, any tips on installing from the lip side? I am afraid of damaging it. I have installed a lot of seals, but never from the lip side.

Thanks

Cpenn · Aug 21, 2019

Jeff, does your model have a differential lock? If so, does it have a seal for it? I got the bull gears and carriers put back together along with axle, and decided to fill it up with oil before I put the hydrualics cover on and close it up, to see if there were any leaks. It looks like a tiny bit is seeping through the differential lock shaft. Is there a seal for that? Is it located inside of the hollow brake pinion shaft? Perhaps it is the o-ring that is leaking.

Anyone else know about this?

Thanks

Bob · Aug 21, 2019

(quoted from post at 07:18:57 08/21/19)
Jeff, does your model have a differential lock? If so, does it have a seal for it? I got the bull gears and carriers put back together along with axle, and decided to fill it up with oil before I put the hydrualics cover on and close it up, to see if there were any leaks. It looks like a tiny bit is seeping through the differential lock shaft. Is there a seal for that? Is it located inside of the hollow brake pinion shaft? Perhaps it is the o-ring that is leaking.

Anyone else know about this?

Thanks

https://partstore.caseih.com/us/par...amp;sl=EN&currency=#epc::mr50024ar1274162

Cpenn · Aug 21, 2019

So do you think that the differential lock seal is inside of the brake shaft? or is it further back in the differential? I can probably change the o-rings without removing the carrier, but certainly not the seal.

Cpenn · Aug 21, 2019

By "brake shaft", I mean the bull pinion shaft. It is hollow on that side to accomodate the differential lock shaft that protrudes through it. Could that seal be located inside of the bull pinion shaft?

JeffPhillips · Aug 21, 2019

There are actually two seals, both are o-rings. There is a retainer that holds the differential spring lock in place. The retainer goes inside the bull pinion shaft and the differential lock bar/shaft goes through the middle of the retainer. There is an oring inside the retainer sealing the lock shaft to the retainer, and there is an o-ring around the outside of the retainer sealing the retainer to the pull pinion shaft.

The o-rings are nothing special, just make sure they are an oil resistant material such as buna-n

JeffPhillips · Aug 21, 2019

It is Interesting to hear yours was leaking fluid around the lock shaft. Mine, when full, doesn t achieve nearly that depth. Capacity is listed at 5 gallons, and when I filled it up last week it was almost exactly as stated before hitting the level of the fill hole plug.

Cpenn · Aug 23, 2019

Jeff,

That is very interesting. The capacity of the entire system for mine (3444) is listed as 18 gallons. I do not dare pour all 18 gallons into the cavity yet, but I did end up pouring in about 15 gallons. That is when I noticed the slight leak/weeping. So I checked the level on the dipstick, located just in front of the gear shift lever, which indicated it was beyond full. So I drained out a little (less than a gallon) in order to bring it just a hair below "F" on the dipstick.

Keep in mind that I'm just pouring it in and not running anything. The hydraulic control cover is still not attached and the cavity is still wide open. I only turn the axle a bit to spin the gears. I am interested in your thoughts.

Cpenn · Aug 23, 2019

I did change the O-rings that you are referring to, but it does look like there is a seal inside of the bull/brake pinion shaft according to the diagram.

You can kind of see it through the hollow pinion in the photo below.

Also, take a look at the scene under UV light. The tiniest bit of hydraulic fluid glows like a roman candle. I am wondering if the dipstick is not giving me a good reading and that I might be overfilled as you suggested.

Now, if it turns out that it is not overfilled, perhaps one possible solution, without having to tear the entire thing apart (since both axles and both carriers have to be removed if you want to get to the RH seal), is to place a seal over the differential lock shaft, inside of the hollow pinion. I tried a larger O-ring already; won't fit. Basically, it would be placing a seal near the outside part of the pinon instead of near the inside. Shaft is 0.5" and bore is 0.85". I can get the exact seal (National) from O'Reily for 4 bucks. Although I would have to get another spring that is a little shorter. It's an option. But I still have to wonder if it is overfilled. How deep is the fluid in that cavity on yours?

JeffPhillips · Aug 23, 2019

Is that not the bull pinion carrier seal That prevents the oil from leaking between the shaft and the carrier? The brakes are so undersized on these things that you really don t want a leak here as it can really impact the stopping ability.

Cpenn · Sep 9, 2019

(quoted from post at 21:01:43 08/23/19) Is that not the bull pinion carrier seal That prevents the oil from leaking between the shaft and the carrier? The brakes are so undersized on these things that you really don t want a leak here as it can really impact the stopping ability.

It is a different seal. It is a seal located inside of the brake/bull pinion shaft itself, not the one at the carrier. I changed the one at the carrier.

So I managed to solve the problem by finding the proper O-ring. The standard o-rings from harbor freight kit would not fit. I had to go to a shop that specializes in making rubber product, specifically hydraulic hoses and o-rings. Since that differential lock shaft spins with the brake/bull pinion shaft that it is inside of, you can get away with an O-ring since the differential lock shaft is not spinning independently......if that makes any sense. Anyway it solved the problem.

I got it back together, and I'll show some photos and provide some information for any poor fools who do this someday and find this thread.

Cpenn · Sep 9, 2019

I'll back up here for a minute. One of my earlier questions was about how to install the carrier bearing seal backwards. Here is the reason why I was concerned. Take a look at the pictures. The seal has to be installed backwards, that is, on the side that you normally would not pound on. So you would normally would use a block of wood over the top of it. DO NOT use the seal from yesterday tractors. the metal is thin. When I tap it with the block of wood it sliced into the wood, and eventually bent the seal. The Napa seal is shown next to it for comparison. That Napa seal was a lot more stout and able to be tapped in with a wooden block and not deforming.

Cpenn · Sep 9, 2019

Installing the bearing carriers: Order of operations is to first set the differential in the cavity, on top of a couple of small 2x4 blocks to bring it to height. Put the brake/bull pinion shaft into the carrier while still on your bench, and put the bearing cup on it; that will hold the shaft into carrier.

Next, angle the differential so that the differential lock shaft is pointed toward the front. This way, you can slide the carrier partly into place, with the differential lock shaft going inside of the brake/bull pinion shaft. Don't push it all the way in. Next, put the left side carrier in so that it will support the differential, and pull out the 2x4 blocks. With the differential still slightly angled, put the right side bull gear in. Then use several long bolts with washers to pull the carrier into the cavity, while slowly moving the differential and bull gear into the proper position (i.e. no longer angled).

After that is in, the hard part is done. Put in the left side bull gear as you push the left side carrier in.

Cpenn · Sep 9, 2019

Here is a pic of the linkages on the seat hydraulic controls if anyone needs it. I know that I was thankful for pictures that I took before I took it apart since there were so many linkages that could have connected in different ways. The other end of the spring connects to the bottom cover. The

Cpenn · Sep 9, 2019

Before putting the hydraulics control back on, I did a leak test by simply pouring in the fluid, and I learned that my axle housing was leaking. Keep in mind that I did change the axle seals, but I was able to do that without taking off the axle housing. At this point, I did not want to pull the axle housing off just for a gasket. So I lift the axle house enough that I had at least 1 inch gap, plenty of room to scrape the old gasket surface. Then I use the black permatex. That stuff is amazing. I always used the red and blue in cooperation with a normal gasket, but the black stuff takes the place of the normal gasket. So I just squirt a bead around the surface and made a gasket with it. Great stuff.

Cpenn · Sep 9, 2019

Putting the hydraulics cover back on: make sure you attach the bottom hose with the double o-rings onto the hydraulic housing first, otherwise you will not get it connected. I had to lift my housing back off because I made that mistake.

Cpenn · Sep 9, 2019

With all new fluid and a new filter, I had it all back together and it seems to work good. No leaks, the 3 pt now stays up, and the fluid added to the top of hydraulics cover does not immediately run down to the lower cavity because that O-ring was replaced. ONe last word on that top plate located on the cover: cinch it down evenly and slowly so that the return pipe fits down nice and tight into the O-ring on the bottom plate. It is an awkward angle. First time I did not get it to seat properly and when I added fluid it flowed directly from the 3 pt hydraulics down into the differential cavity.

Although there is one potential issue. It seems to have to work hard to curl the bucket (either up or down). The bucket lifts up and down with no problem. If I try to curl the bucket while driving, it nearly stalls out. I'll post that as a separate question in a new thread.

dharmab434 · Sep 23, 2019

Thanks for the thorough and well documented posts on your rebuild. I am going through some similar issues on a B-434 and thought I would mention a couple of additional Permatex options I found when I was at my local autoparts supplier. There is Ultra-black, a higher performance gasket maker rated to 400 degrees F continuous and now there is a green coloured gasket maker for use on transmissions and differentials, formulated to resist gear box oils and rated to 450 degrees F continuous.

3444 hydraulics mystery

Member

Well-known Member

Well-known Member

Well-known Member

Member

Member

Well-known Member

Member

Member

Well-known Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Well-known Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Similar threads