IH B414 PTO Won't Engage

Hi all:
I'm working on a roughly 1964 International Harvester B414. The problem I have is the PTO will not engage. Upon initial inspection I noted that the PTO engage lever moved back and forth with no feel of any gears being changed. I read a post here a while back that said this is often caused by the actuator pin on the end of the shift lever actuator being broken off. It seemed so logical that I just ordered the part. I pulled that out to replace it today, and the pin is just fine. The gears look serviceable, with a little wear on the end of the internal PTO shaft spines from careless operators. After quite a bit of time, working by myself, I realized that when the coupling gear is all the way forward, it is not engaged to the PTO shaft at all. So I went around the back and pushed on the PTO shaft. Turns out my PTO shaft has about 5/8 of an inch of end travel. I am presuming some sort of a shaft keeper has come loose somewhere. I don't have a service manual for this tractor. So my question is, is there any chance that this is something that can be fixed without having to pull the top off of the transmission?
Thanks very much in advance for any help.
Best,
Mike

Hi, are you 100% sure the pin from the PTO lever is engaging in the collar? We had one where the PTO lever became bent between the holes in the casting and the actuator shaft because the Operator forced the
PTO into gear without depressing the clutch to the foot rest to disengage the PTO clutch.

For PTO shaft problems see the link to B414 PTO Shaft.

JimB
B414 PTO Shaft

There's a circlip (11) inside the seal at the rear PTO bearing.

NOT sure if you can access it after pulling the seal (13) out. Also an internal circlip in the front of the bearing housing, #9.

Or, drain transmission oil (or possibly park tractor nose-down on an incline), make sure the shift collar is in the engaged (forward) position, so it stays on the transmission shaft, remove the 3 bolts at the back and you can pull the PTO shaft out for repairs.

hi Bob!
Yes! Thank you for the diagram. I suspect I am missing one of these Circlips. My main concern was whether I could pull that PTO shaft without a bunch of stuff falling down into that differential. I will slide that collar forward and pull the PTO shaft. I hope it is that simple. I will post the results here shortly

Hi Bob!
Yes! Thank you for the diagram. I suspect I am missing one of these Circlips. My main concern was whether I could pull that PTO shaft without a bunch of stuff falling down into that differential. I will slide that collar forward and pull the PTO shaft. I hope it is that simple. I will post the results here shortly[/quote]

Hi all:
Replying to my own post here. This is going to be a little long. First, an apology to Jim B2. I believe the last time I installed the PTO shifter I did not have the pin in the groove on that coupler, but I do now. Second I was correct that there was a C clip out of the groove at the rear bearing. It was the outer clip, allowing the shaft to travel too far in. After installing a new Circlip, the end travel on the PTO shaft is less than 1/8 of an inch. At this juncture the PTO shaft will engage and disengage. The problem is it just barely engages. I would estimate maybe 1/8 of an inch. If I move the PTO lever even 1/2 inch from the engaged position, it is out of gear. I am fairly sure it should engage further than this. After reinstalling the PTO shaft, I looked through the shifter hole, and there is about 5/8 of an inch of space between the end of the PTO shaft and the end of the shaft coming out of the transmission housing. I would guess that the bushing in the center of the PTO shaft is only slid on the end of that transmission output shaft about one quarter of an inch. That old circlip was dished out and slid down the shaft just as if someone had been pounding on the end of the PTO shaft with a large hammer. I suspect someone drove through a low place with a brush cutter on there and a PTO shaft that was too long, pushing inward on the PTO shaft with great force. I suspect, in addition to the PTO shaft being shoved inward, that the shaft coming out of the transmission has also been shoved inward into the transmission case approximately 5/8 of an inch. Another reason I say this is because when I look in through the PTO shifter hole at that shaft coming out of the transmission what I see sticking out of the transmission is nothing but teeth. I would expect there to be a little bit of flat shaft with no teeth on it protruding from that transmission. I wonder if another retainer has been knocked out of its groove inside that transmission and that shaft is pressed into the transmission 5/8 of an inch. Does anyone think this is a likely possibility? The only other possibility I can think of is that my PTO shaft is 5/8 of an inch too short, and I do not consider that very likely.

Again, any thoughts would be appreciated.

Best

Mike

Hi Mike, you are probably very correct someone has jammed a too long PTO shaft into the PTO shaft on the tractor.
I would think that 5/8" gap is too large probably 1/8" is more correct.
IIRC on the PTO engagement lever it was about 2" from the Engaged hole position that you could feel the teeth grind if the PTO clutch was not totally disengaged.
Did you verify that the PTO engagement lever is not bent? If you try pushing the PTO engagement level beyond the Engaged hole will it go?
How heavy a PTO work do you plan on using this tractor on? Bush Hog? Sickle mower? PTO AC standby generator?

As you can see from the Youtube video I referenced it is not difficult to remove the front PTO shaft if the tractor is split but working thru the clutch inspection cover on bottom of bell housing is no fun,
BTDT.

JimB

Hi Jim:
I believe you are correct that the engagement point used to be at about the one half point of the shifter travel. I originally bought this tractor in 1987. I sold it to my brother in 1997. Last fall he gave it back to me with this PTO problem. My intention is to try to fix it and sell it. To answer your question, yes the lever will go past the engaged detent until it hits the brake housing. I warmed that lever up with the torch and sprung it forward below the detent point, giving it another half inch of travel or so. I would estimate now that the splines are probably engaged 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch on each end of the coupler. With that 5/8 of an inch gap between the two shafts, that is probably all that can be achieved. The splines on both the PTO shaft and the transmission output shaft are very good, and it would probably hold quite a bit this way, but I really hate to sell it to someone like this. After watching the video, it is hard for me to imagine how that shaft in the transmission could be pressed forward 5/8 of an inch. In your last post you stated "it is not difficult to remove the front PTO shaft if the tractor is split but working thru the clutch inspection cover on bottom of bell housing is no fun,
BTDT." First, what does BTDT stand for? Second, in your opinion is it possible that I could do this without splitting the tractor? Again, I hate to sell it like it is, but I am not sure the tractor is worth the amount of work it would take to do that.

Thanks

Mike


uote="jimb2"](quoted from post at 16:35:01 05/18/19) Hi Mike, you are probably very correct someone has jammed a too long PTO shaft into the PTO shaft on the tractor.
I would think that 5/8" gap is too large probably 1/8" is more correct.
IIRC on the PTO engagement lever it was about 2" from the Engaged hole position that you could feel the teeth grind if the PTO clutch was not totally disengaged.
Did you verify that the PTO engagement lever is not bent? If you try pushing the PTO engagement level beyond the Engaged hole will it go?
How heavy a PTO work do you plan on using this tractor on? Bush Hog? Sickle mower? PTO AC standby generator?

As you can see from the Youtube video I referenced it is not difficult to remove the front PTO shaft if the tractor is split but working thru the clutch inspection cover on bottom of bell housing is no fun,
BTDT.

JimB[/quote]

Hi all:
replying to my own post again. I pulled that clutch inspection cover. There was about half a quart of nasty, filthy, stinky water in there which I am currently wearing on my shirt. It is no problem at all to remove that snap ring and pull that cover off from in front of the front PTO shaft. The shaft is, indeed, shoved forward I would say at least one half of an inch. With no transmission diagram, I am guessing there is probably a circlip on that shaft behind that front bearing, and it is probably popped out of its groove just like the one on the rear PTO shaft was. No telling what all else. Currently waiting for the oil to quit dripping so I can pull the pan off the bottom of the transmission. Grrr. No good can come from this.

More later

Mike

Okay. Pulling that thing I called a transmission cover off the bottom doesn't get you very far. All that is in there is the gear that drives the PTO shaft. From what I saw in the video that Jim provided the link to, I would remove that nut off the end of the shaft, and the shaft would easily slide out the back of the tractor. Absolutely not the case here. The shaft would not move end-wise at all. In fact, there is quite a bit I don't understand here. His video didn't mention anything at all about that PTO drive gear in the first wet case behind the inspection cover. In any case, I figured I didn't have anything to lose at this point. I got out a 2 pound copper hammer and just beat on the end of that shaft until it started moving. I won't lie, I had to hit it pretty hard, but it finally, gradually moved. The PTO shifter works normally now. I wish I had not bent it. Now I have to straighten it back out. I think I am going to cut my losses and call it good.

Thanks to everyone for the help

Best regards

Mike