Where to find IH 2000 loader spare parts?

ETD66SS

Member
Looking for this front PTO driven HYD pump for a IH 2000 FEL:

https://imgur.com/EjKLQmu
https://imgur.com/iQxVumQ

The action of the loader is very jerky and makes a screeching sound when actuating the lift cylinders, I think maybe there is something wrong with the pump, I've already been through all the other HYD systems.

I do have an IH loader parts manual, and it calls for a Cessna 378872R91 pump. I can't find that anywhere online. I don't want to take this pump apart until I know I can buy a replacement if it is all scored up on the inside.

One thing I have been told is that this loader would not have come on a 444 it would have come on a 2444? Some parts of this tractor and loader do have yellow paint under the red/white. I think someone combined a 444 & 2444 at some point in time...
 

Yes, I know that when a 444 has this type of pump you have to fill it past the trans housing oil level plugs, 17 gallons in total is what I was told.

I had the HYD lift off the back 3 years ago to try to find out why the oil always had water in it. I thought that's what was causing the loader to be all herky jerky. I figured out that item 1 in this figure: https://imgur.com/a4fJATk was the culprit.

The steel used for the flange was too thin, and the gasket would squeeze by each bolt hole deforming the cover plate. Water from rain and snow melt would seep in between that cover and the lift housing. I made some stiffener bars and used longer bolts to fasten that cover plate back on, changed the oil, and it has not gotten milky over the last 3 years. Oil is still clear.

However, the lift cylinders are still jerky as ever. Only thing I can think of is pump damage causing some kind of cavitation? But not sure, need air for cavitation, and the oil is not getting foamy. It's very hard to precisely lift anything with this loader, it jerks all over the place. It's been that way since my Dad bought the tractor ~16 years ago.
 
I wouldn't condemn the pump until having it flow tested under pressure. A good hydraulic shop should be able to do this for you. Replacing it only to find the
problem still exists would be a very expensive way of zeroing in on the problem. Another test would be putting a pressure gauge right out of the pump to observe
what is happening when the screeching and jerking is taking place. If you're not lifting anything and the pump is still getting to high pressure you might have
some sort of valve issue or a blockage in a downstream hose. A sudden drop in pressure during the screeching could be a sign of an oil supply issue. To me your
description just sounds more like a pump starvation issue or a valve problem, rather than the pump itself.
 
(quoted from post at 04:30:13 05/11/19) I wouldn't condemn the pump until having it flow tested under pressure. A good hydraulic shop should be able to do this for you. Replacing it only to find the
problem still exists would be a very expensive way of zeroing in on the problem. Another test would be putting a pressure gauge right out of the pump to observe
what is happening when the screeching and jerking is taking place. If you're not lifting anything and the pump is still getting to high pressure you might have
some sort of valve issue or a blockage in a downstream hose. A sudden drop in pressure during the screeching could be a sign of an oil supply issue. To me your
description just sounds more like a pump starvation issue or a valve problem, rather than the pump itself.

Well I am pretty sure the pump is not starving for oil, already been through the supply side of the system. It would have to be something on the pressure side.

I'm not looking to outright buy a pump to start with, just want to get a line on parts before I start taking things apart. I wanted to take the pump apart to see if there was any damage/excessive wear. Don't want to do that until I have a parts breakdown.

Can't really find any of the parts for the control valves either with online part number searches. There was an optional anti-cavitation valve option it seems.

I know that at some point this loader was moved from a 2444 (or some other IND model) to this 444. Maybe someone setup something incorrectly from the get go.
 
Hi, you are correct the hydraulic system is setup like a 2444 where it uses the trans/diff as the hydraulic reservoir. I have never worked on one of these systems but it is a hydraulic system.
Where is the screeching sound coming from the pump area or the hydraulic control valve area? If the screeching is coming from the hydraulic control valve it could be something is tripping the relief valve.
Please post a picture of hydraulic control valve and the plumbing into it.
It sounds like the hydraulic pump is sucking air or the suction filter is clogged. Make sure the transmission is over full, check the suction line for leaks, clean or replace the suction filter.
Does the bucket cylinders do the same thing? Can you switch the hydraulic connectors for the bucket with the boom and see if the problem is in the hydraulic control valve?
 
(quoted from post at 06:12:45 05/11/19) Hi, you are correct the hydraulic system is setup like a 2444 where it uses the trans/diff as the hydraulic reservoir. I have never worked on one of these systems but it is a hydraulic system.
Where is the screeching sound coming from the pump area or the hydraulic control valve area? If the screeching is coming from the hydraulic control valve it could be something is tripping the relief valve.
Please post a picture of hydraulic control valve and the plumbing into it.
It sounds like the hydraulic pump is sucking air or the suction filter is clogged. Make sure the transmission is over full, check the suction line for leaks, clean or replace the suction filter.
Does the bucket cylinders do the same thing? Can you switch the hydraulic connectors for the bucket with the boom and see if the problem is in the hydraulic control valve?

It's pretty hard for me to nail down where exactly the sound is coming from. The noise and violent jerking happens to both the lift and bucket cylinders, in both directions. The only time it does not happen is if I push the lift control lever all the way past the detent and let the loader drop, it's not using any pressure at that point, so it drops smooth.

I made some videos. First one is operating the lift, second the bucket. At the end of the second vid when the loader is dropped, that's with the lever pushed past the detent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57cOcZvzuYw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6-4RgKVSWE

If you can't hear the squealing, just look for the camera shake, that's when it happens.

As far as the suction circuit. I had that all apart, new suction filter. I replaced all the hose sections in the suction circuit between the various hard lines, pretty sure I used all new hose clamps too.

Here are some pictures of the control valves:

https://imgur.com/WuPFi8n

https://imgur.com/nKkdRrv

You can see here the oil gets full of bubbles, I took a small sample and after about 30 minutes the oil is all cleared up.

https://imgur.com/LViRynF

This loader has been doing this since the day my Dad bought the tractor ~16 years ago. The HYD oil was always milky, always had water in it. We'd do a full change and it was back to milky in no time. So 3 years ago I pulled off the lift cylinder housing and went through everything. New gaskets, O-rings, suction circuit hoses, everything. I thought that if I could remove the water from the oil and keep it that way this problem would go away.

I finally discovered the source of the water was from the thin steel used on the suction/return line cover plate on top of the lift housing. This add-on required to operate the front PTO mounted pump was squeezing the gasket by each bolt and deforming the cover, allowing rain and snow melt to seep down into the lift housing.

I solved that problem by making a stiffener bar with set screws and jam nuts to force the cover plate flat to the gasket in the area it was deformed. See this pic: https://imgur.com/YzwCani

They needed to use thicker steel for that cover plate or more bolts, poor design...

So, I solved the water in oil issue, but not the air/cavitation issue.

I mean, the only way you can get air bubbles into the oil is if the pump is sucking air along with oil correct?
 
Looks normal to me as you would not normally just set and raise and lower a loader frame like that, or tilt the bucket repetitiously like that unless you are just fooling around.
As for the pump it looks like it is working fine.
I would look at those quick couplers you have at the top of the valve for flow problems. Weak spring in coupler or other such things. I've had couplers with the IH pointed tip with pioneer ball couplers and they slipped out of alignment and stopped flow.
 
(quoted from post at 17:34:54 05/11/19) Looks normal to me as you would not normally just set and raise and lower a loader frame like that, or tilt the bucket repetitiously like that unless you are just fooling around.
As for the pump it looks like it is working fine.
I would look at those quick couplers you have at the top of the valve for flow problems. Weak spring in coupler or other such things. I've had couplers with the IH pointed tip with pioneer ball couplers and they slipped out of alignment and stopped flow.

I've used quite a few loaders in my lifetime and this one is def not safe to use for lifting stuff due to the random jerking.

And yeah good point. I was thinking of remove the couplers as a test to see if they were the issue.
 
Again I want to emphasis that I have never worked on the Industrial models of 2414, 2444 but throughout the years on this YT and the RP forum I have read the posts of problems and fixes of the front mounted
hydraulic systems.
IIRC the 2444 with the front mounted hydraulic pump uses the trans/diff as the hydraulic oil reservoir just like the larger IH tractors that is the reason the trans/diff has to be over filled with 17 Gal of
Hytran to have the additional capacity for the front mounted pump. Only the 3pt and PS uses the reservoir under the seat.
Are you sure the plate under the seat that you fixed had the bottom half that went into the trans/diff housing with all the proper O-rings installed?
I am wondering if some previous owner only stuck the top half of the plate and tubes into the 3pt reservoir only and with the front mounted pump being much higher flow rate than the 3pt pump that it is sucking
the 3pt reservoir empty until more hydraulic oil comes back from the loader cylinders and that is the reason for the jerks and the air in the oil.
Post on Red Power
 
(quoted from post at 20:03:38 05/10/19) Looking for this front PTO driven HYD pump for a IH 2000 FEL:

https://imgur.com/EjKLQmu
https://imgur.com/iQxVumQ

The action of the loader is very jerky and makes a screeching sound when actuating the lift cylinders, I think maybe there is something wrong with the pump, I've already been through all the other HYD systems.

I do have an IH loader parts manual, and it calls for a Cessna 378872R91 pump. I can't find that anywhere online. I don't want to take this pump apart until I know I can buy a replacement if it is all scored up on the inside.

One thing I have been told is that this loader would not have come on a 444 it would have come on a 2444? Some parts of this tractor and loader do have yellow paint under the red/white. I think someone combined a 444 & 2444 at some point in time...

I'm not sure exactly what you've got going on with your cobbled up and mixed and unmatched setup, but jerky operation of the loader and screeching would NOT typically be the symptoms one would expect from a worn gear-type pump, IMHO.

Pretty sure you've got something else going on, and it's not going to be easy to diagnose over the 'net, I'm afraid!
 
(quoted from post at 19:05:17 05/11/19) Again I want to emphasis that I have never worked on the Industrial models of 2414, 2444 but throughout the years on this YT and the RP forum I have read the posts of problems and fixes of the front mounted
hydraulic systems.
IIRC the 2444 with the front mounted hydraulic pump uses the trans/diff as the hydraulic oil reservoir just like the larger IH tractors that is the reason the trans/diff has to be over filled with 17 Gal of
Hytran to have the additional capacity for the front mounted pump. Only the 3pt and PS uses the reservoir under the seat.
Are you sure the plate under the seat that you fixed had the bottom half that went into the trans/diff housing with all the proper O-rings installed?
I am wondering if some previous owner only stuck the top half of the plate and tubes into the 3pt reservoir only and with the front mounted pump being much higher flow rate than the 3pt pump that it is sucking
the 3pt reservoir empty until more hydraulic oil comes back from the loader cylinders and that is the reason for the jerks and the air in the oil.
Post on Red Power

All the parts shown here https://imgur.com/a4fJATk were present when I took off the lift housing. The return oil from the loader system comes out of the right hand hard line on item 1 in that figure. Item 7 bolts to the bottom of the lift housing with a gasket sealing in the oil needed for the lift cylinder. The stand tube shown on the left hand side of item 7 in the figure sets the oil level in the lift housing. Extra oil rolls over the top of that tube and back down into the rear differential housing. And before you ask I did not forget the o-ring between the tube connection from item 1 to item 7 for the suction line.

Somehow air is getting into the system, the gear pump mixes the air with the oil, making the oil foamy, making the foamy oil compressible, causing the jerkiness of the lift and bucket cylinders.

I have replaced every gasket o-ring and hose section I can on the oil supply side of the equation. The only thing I have not taken apart is the pump. It does not leak, so therefore you'd think it is not sucking in air.

I don't know how anything on the loader controls could be sucking in air. Other than the quick couplers maybe, so I may just remove them from the equation and hook the lines directly to the control valves.
 
Today I took out the quick disconnects and plumbed the existing hoses directly to the control valves. https://imgur.com/reiLR13

Someone did cobble this together with a mishmash of fittings. JIC fittings where SAE fittings should be, etc.

In the end, taking out the couplers did not change anything, still has the same issue.

I got some better pictures of the front pump. https://imgur.com/AGC6BlX https://imgur.com/73GIhbJ

Turns out it's not a Cessna or a Thompson it's a TRW, but that part number stamped on the left looks like an IH part number.

Not sure what to look at next...
 
One thing that hasn't been stated yet, is that the pump manufacturer (i.e. Cessna, Thompson, or TRW) doesn't go by the IH part number. Going direct to the pump manufacturer is probably your only hope of finding parts.

In watching your videos, I don't see the jerking or hear the squealing either. The only time the camera shakes is when you stop the loader to change direction. I *think* I can hear something every few seconds in the background, but it's hard to tell. If it is what I think it is, I had a similar noise in my Farmall Cub when I temporarily put a loader on it. Every few seconds it would make a "ZING!" only much louder than what I'm hearing from yours. Nobody could tell me what it was. I never solved it. Took the loader off and the noise stopped, so I sold the loader.

Only thing I could figure is it was an air bubble that just wouldn't work its way out. Just kept circulating around the system. Like I said, never figured it out for sure...
 
Yeah, I guess the squealing is not loud like a typical relief valve squeal...

All I can say is the jerkiness is happening, and it does make a squeal. And sitting right next to the control valves when operating the loader, it doesn't sound like it's coming from the valves, more like from the pump at the front.

I just don't know if a gear pump will make noises if there is air in the oil.

I ordered an operators manual off eBay for a 2444, hopefully it has a bleeding procedure for the loader, as I have never tried to bleed it. Not sure where I would do that.

If it does not have to be bled and the air is supposed to work itself out, well then I'm stuck again.
 
I guess a bit more information on 2000 loaders. A member over on the Red Power forums states the dealership he worked at installed 2000 loaders on new 424 & 444 tractors, and they installed them with the front PTO pump. So it's not just industrial tractors that got the front PTO pumps it seems...
 
There isn't enough different between the farm and industrial tractors that you couldn't install the loader and front pump on either. Only thing stopping you would be a Federal law.
 
(quoted from post at 12:34:26 05/13/19) There isn't enough different between the farm and industrial tractors that you couldn't install the loader and front pump on either. Only thing stopping you would be a Federal law.

Well, I stopped by my Dad's today to look at the 444 again. I read in a couple old forums posts that with a loader, and a front mount PTO pump, the oil level should be about 6" from the fill port on the trans to the right of the shifter. I made a dipstick, and I'm about 11" until I hit oil. Looks like I need a few more gallons of oil. Pretty sure I put in 17 gallons last time I worked on this...
 
Hi, as I understand the USA built units were what they called crate units. If it was a Diesel 444, the main chassis (rear axles, diff/trans and BD-154 Diesel engine) was all built in Bradfort UK and then put
in a crate and shipped to Louisville, KY where the Delco electrical system, front axle, power steering, wheels, tires and possibly tin work like fenders and grille were added and branded as USA made/assembled.
If it was a gas version the 444 would be shipped without engine and a USA built C-146 for B414, 424 and 2424 models and C-153 for 444 and 2444 models, gasoline engine would be installed at Louisville.
A couple quick checks to see if USA built, serial number plate, power steering if there is no drag link on left side of tractor connecting steering wheel mechanism to front knuckles, only hydraulic hoses to
two hydraulic cylinders on front axle and check starter/alternator for being Delco and not Lucas made although over the years these could have been swapped.

Here in Canada we received the complete UK built units although a few of the USA built units would appear.
 
(quoted from post at 07:00:17 05/14/19) Hi, as I understand the USA built units were what they called crate units. If it was a Diesel 444, the main chassis (rear axles, diff/trans and BD-154 Diesel engine) was all built in Bradfort UK and then put
in a crate and shipped to Louisville, KY where the Delco electrical system, front axle, power steering, wheels, tires and possibly tin work like fenders and grille were added and branded as USA made/assembled.
If it was a gas version the 444 would be shipped without engine and a USA built C-146 for B414, 424 and 2424 models and C-153 for 444 and 2444 models, gasoline engine would be installed at Louisville.
A couple quick checks to see if USA built, serial number plate, power steering if there is no drag link on left side of tractor connecting steering wheel mechanism to front knuckles, only hydraulic hoses to
two hydraulic cylinders on front axle and check starter/alternator for being Delco and not Lucas made although over the years these could have been swapped.

Here in Canada we received the complete UK built units although a few of the USA built units would appear.

Well, here is the SN plate: https://imgur.com/oTrE9Kv


Here is the power steering: https://imgur.com/rsfVCTc

So no drag link due to the double steering cylinders.

I ordered an owners manual off eBay, hoping it has the capacities for the IH 444 with load + front PTO pump.

I was reading on some other forums, that if an AG 444 had a 3pt lift and power steering, when a loader was added a front mount pump was required. If the tractor did not have either the 3pt lift or power steering, it did not receive a front mount pump with the loader.

I will add more oil this weekend until the level is 6" below the fill plug next to the shifter, and hope that solves the foamy oil problem. I can't believe it would be that easy, but I'll take it if that's the case!
 
Hi, your 444 is definitely a USA built/assembled tractor. I could not find a photo of UK build 444 with the dual hydraulic pumps but see photos of UK build 384 same as your 444 but one generation newer. We
had a 384 with IH 1550 loader and neighbor had a 444 with 1501 loader and they were the same except for the tin work was updated to match the 84 series styling. In Canada we only received UK build units.

See attached photos of UK 384, one photo shows the dual hydraulic pumps, front one used for 3pt and rear one used for power steering only, both pumps had a capacity of 7.6 GPM US.
The other photo shows the Power Steering setup with the power steering cylinder on the left side of tractor with the steering drag link controlling the valve on the power steering cylinder.

Re front hydraulic pump for loaders on USA build 444s, reason being the USA build units only had one 10 GPM US hydraulic pump to run both 3pt and power steering using a splitter priority valve.
If a loader was installed it over loaded the hydraulic pump. If the loader was lifting and you turned the steering wheel the priority valve would direct hydraulic flow to the PS and the loader would slow
down or stop lifting. On the UK build units with the dual hydraulic pumps the loader was plumbed in series before the 3pt lift so lifting the loader would stop the 3pt lifting but turning the steering wheel
had no effect as it had its own hydraulic pump but did use the same reservoir under the seat. Also on the UK built units the trans/diff was filled with 90WT gear oil. On the USA built units as soon as a
front pump was added then the adapter kit had to be added to the hydraulic reservoir under the seat to use the trans/diff with Hytran hydraulic oil and over filled to within 6" inches of the top to become
the hydraulic reservoir for the front pump.

Hope this explains some of the differences between UK and USA built units.


cvphoto23167.jpg


cvphoto23168.jpg
 
OK, I think I am understanding a bit better now.

I have read I think almost every 444/2444 thread on these forums and Jim, you comment in almost every single one of them! Teaching everyone about these tractors. Much appreciated, sorry if you have to keep repeating yourself.

One last thing I am still confused about. Turns out my Dad's 444 does not have the adjustable front axle, only place I can find what he has is here: https://partstore.caseih.com/us/parts-search.html#epc::mr50024ar1302355

The heavy duty front axle for a 2444. It almost seems like everything on this tractor points towards a 2444, except the serial tag says 444???

The loaders' base color is yellow, so I always assumed this 444 did not come with a loader from the US assembly plant. It looks like the font axle was never painted yellow, so now I'm thinking it was setup for a loader otherwise it would have had the adjustable front axle...

I think if I ever paint this tractor I'm going to paint it up as a yellow 2444, no matter what the serial tag says :)
 
So today I added ~4.75 gallons of oil and still 7" away from the fill plug.

I cycled the loader and bucket for about 5 minutes each, and there is no change. Still foamy oil and jerky operation. I'll add the last it of oil this weekend and run the hydraulics a lot more and see if it changes.
 
Re Repeating, No problem, I am no expert either as we did not see many 2444s in my part of Canada, the Case backhoe loader tractors were the most popular Industrial tractor.
Your Dad's 444 would appear to be a hybrid, serial tag from 444, front axle from 2444. Over the last 50 years almost anything could happen to a tractor. Front end replaced or torque tube replaced?
 
Well, I suppose you might have the same problem I'm here for. Probably 20 years ago and a few 100 tons worth of loading ago, when my parents first purchased the now red, previously yellow, probably 2444 I have now, we were told the splines for the front pump shaft were worn. Recently the loader started working intermittently and pretty quickly started squalling more than anything else.

The crank hub/adapter is now worn nearly smooth and the spline shaft is missing quite a bit of material in an odd pattern.

I've not yet found a source for either of these parts. The hub that bolts to the crankshaft (or pulley? I didn't look that close) has 4 bolts but the pattern is not square, it's rectangular. I'm nervous it might be rare.

Unless there's an easy source for the parts I'm probably going to go after them both with a cut-off wheel and buzz on a suitable shaft and coupling pair.
 

I have yet to take off the pump and inspect those parts. However, in my situation the oil is foaming up due to air entering the system. It's worth a check however, thanks for the tip.

From your pictures, it looks like those flanges have rubber isolators in the mounting holes?
 
Oh my mistake, I didn't read that this has been going on for so long, our hub was worn near perfectly smooth in probably 2 minutes once it let go. Sounds like starvation - if not fluid level (which I gather
needs to be filled well over the sight-plug for the front pump?) then maybe filter/screen? Especially if there was water in it for a long time. For what it's worth you don't need air in the fluid for
cavitation; the cavity looks like air (when you see it in water) but it's actually a vacuum.
 

Yeah, this has been a long ordeal. The oil once had water in it, but I solved that problem. Now I am dealing with a foamy oil situation where after letting the machine sit for a few hours the oil looks normal, no foam.

I do realize you can have cavitation without air, but I think I need air in the oil to have the foamy oil situation.

I thought I had the proper amount of oil in it, but finding new information as of late state that with the front PTO pump the correct level is 6" below the filler port. I have to top that off a bit more then try to cycle out the air.

If that doesn't work, have to find out just how air is getting into the system.
 
Well I added 5 gallons more oil today, still not 6" below the fill plug...

I cycled the loader for a bit longer today, still jerky, still foamy oil. Off to buy another 5 gallon pal tomorrow.

I don't see any massive trans oil leaks, not sure where all this oil is going.
 
What did you do to correct the issue with your jerky loader?

I have a 2424 that was municipal owned and
not worn hard. Worked great.

Just as the weather turned cold I noticed
that it seemed like there was air in the
loader circuit. Steering and three point
were okay.

I ran the loader and bucket to relief and
then it was better until the next time I
used the tractor.

Now it does it all of the time and the oil
is foamy. Its fresh oil, I had a
transmission issue last year.

Any insights or help would be greatly
appreciated.
 
Air is getting in somewhere. You have to find where that somewhere is, and fix it.

Most likely it is somewhere on the suction side of the system, because if there were an opening on the pressure side, it would blow oil out, not suck air in.

Also please do not reply to old threads even if they pertain to you. Most people don't look at the dates and don't read to the end, so they assume it's new and start answering the original (old) question, completely missing your reply.
 

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