Re: B414 issues.... again

Janicholson

Well-known Member
The splines on the new friction disk (at its hub) may be longer than the old one. This could cause the new disk to jamb against the Flywheel. Jim
 
Hi, very interesting problem. It would appear you have performed the installation correctly.
Some questions:
1) If you depress the clutch pedal all the way to the foot rest will the tractor stop?
2) With the clutch pedal all the way to foot rest and in like 2nd High and apply the brakes will it stall the engine or stop the tractor?
2) With the clutch pedal all the way to foot rest can you put PTO in and out of gear without grinding gears?
Wondering if transmission shaft is seized inside the PTO shaft?
3) When you have the tractor split and transmission in Neutral, have you tried turning the transmission drive shaft and the PTO drive shaft to see if they turn independently?
4) Are clutch plates installed in the same direction as old ones and does the dimensions of the new ones match the old ones? Circumferences, hubs, etc?
I have never seen it on clutch disks but have seen it on brake disks where the replacement disk was a slightly larger circumference than the old disk and it would not fit in the worn groove in the brake
housing. Had to take a grinder a grind a little off the circumference.

JimB
 
I'd vote with the PTO and trans drive shafts being stuck together inside. Or one was the wrong size when put in in the past. Other wise is the Pilot bearing in good condition? Allowing the shaft to settle some when in the vertical postition causing the gears to not stop.
 
You need to measure the distance of travel of the TO bearing when the clutch pedal and linkage is
moved through its entire stroke. Then when you have the clutch mocked up to test for release in
your press that is the amount you need to move it to check for release of the lined disk. Most
presses have a stroke of 6 inches or more. I would be surprised if the throwout bearing motion is
much over an inch and a half or two at the most. All the other proposed issues seem worthy of
checking. The PTO and trans input shaft being seized together is an interesting thought. Should
be able to determine that with a Channel lock pliers or vise-grip on the input shaft.
 

Thanks for the replies guys. Here s some more info on what I have done/tired......

When I have the setup in my press, I only have to compress the fingers 3/4-1" and the disc comes free. I have more than enough travel with the TO bearing

Pto and trans shaft are not seized. I m able to spin them independently. I can put the pto in when it s split and turn the pto shaft at the rear of the tractor and the outer pto shaft spins around the driveshaft. Likewise, I can spin the inner trans shaft and the pto shaft does not spin like it is seized together.

JimB
When I depress the pedal to the floor board, the tractor will just keep on moving.

I have only tried it in 1st low, but if I press the brakes it will want to stall the tractor out.

Pto will engage and disengage as it is supposed to, pto clutch is 100% working, just trans disc is not.

Yes I have tired turning both shafts independently, see above for my description.

New disc is a hair thicker, since it s a new disc, and it is about 1/16-1/8" larger in diameter than old one. But it does not get caught on inside of flywheel, if that s what I think you re thinking about.

The splines on the shaft are the same as the shaft from my donor tractor. Shafts are exactly the same.
 
Adrian, I am very puzzled as to the cause of your transmission clutch not releasing. I realize that these dual clutch systems are very difficult to work on as when installed you cannot see the transmission
clutch.
Another question, does the transmission clutch slide freely on the transmission shaft splines? There is no worn spot on the splines that the clutch disk will stick?

Could you just refresh our memories of the original problem and all parts that were changed?

Thanks
JimB
 
(quoted from post at 09:00:55 05/03/19) Adrian, I am very puzzled as to the cause of your transmission clutch not releasing. I realize that these dual clutch systems are very difficult to work on as when installed you cannot see the transmission
clutch.
Another question, does the transmission clutch slide freely on the transmission shaft splines? There is no worn spot on the splines that the clutch disk will stick?

Could you just refresh our memories of the original problem and all parts that were changed?

Thanks
JimB

Yes the disc slides freely on the shaft and no worn out spots.

The reason this all started was I traded my 8n for the 414 because it had a loader and more hp. I knew it didn t have 3rd, 4th or high range when I got it. Long story short, I bought a donor transmission, swapped gears that the teeth were gone on, replaced the destroyed throwout bearing, pressure plate and frosction disc.
 
Hi, forgot to ask if it was Diesel or gas not that it matters.
So you had the transmission main drive shaft out? I am wondering if the transmission drive shaft is not seated properly and when you put the tractor back together that it is binding on the pilot bearing in the
flywheel? What I am trying to say is the transmission drive shaft is sticking out too far and binding on the end of the crankshaft.
To test you could assemble the tractor without the clutch assembly and try your 1st gear test with the fuel shut OFF and use the starter to turn the engine.
I have no documentation telling the distance the transmission shaft should extend into the bell housing.

JimB
 
(quoted from post at 07:03:28 05/04/19) Hi, forgot to ask if it was Diesel or gas not that it matters.
So you had the transmission main drive shaft out? I am wondering if the transmission drive shaft is not seated properly and when you put the tractor back together that it is binding on the pilot bearing in the
flywheel? What I am trying to say is the transmission drive shaft is sticking out too far and binding on the end of the crankshaft.
To test you could assemble the tractor without the clutch assembly and try your 1st gear test with the fuel shut OFF and use the starter to turn the engine.
I have no documentation telling the distance the transmission shaft should extend into the bell housing.

JimB

Yes, I had the entire transmission apart to replace the gears. I thought of that possibility, but wouldn t a similar test be when I put the tractor back together, before bolting the pressure plate to the flywheel, I should be able to spin the shaft freely? If that "test" would work, it does spin freely until the pressure plate is bolted down to the flyweel then it will not spin any more.
 
Yes, that would also work or loosen the bolts on the bell housing and separate it by 0.25 to 0.50 inches. I believe only fuel lines and hydraulic lines are required to be disconnected.
 
OOPS, did not read your post carefully enough, so you have perform the test of the transmission shaft spinning freely without the pressure plate attached to the flywheel.
So it would appear the problem is still in the pressure plate/clutches assembly to the flywheel?
Not to question your mechanical ability but just to review a few things, the transmission clutch long part of the hub is to the transmission side? Belleville washers are installed properly?
Still wondering about the new transmission clutch circumference being larger and the outside edge catching on the worn groove in the flywheel?
 

No problem Jim, I m a diesel mechanic by trade that s why this is irritating me so much that I can t figure this out.

Yes the longer, smaller diameter shaft inside the larger shaft is the transmission drive shaft. Outer shaft is the pto drive.

I did not take the pressure plate apart, I bought it new from AGParts, took it out of the box, set the measurements and installed it in the tractor.

I ordered another new pilot bearing from my "local"(45 miles away) Case dealer. It will be here Tuesday. The bearing that I reaplaced last time still felt good, but I want to replace it with an OEM one so there is no question to the quality of the part.

Thanks again
 

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