IH444 Bull Pinion Shaft Seal

Kerplooey

Member
As I mentioned in a seperate post, I have leaking fluid through the brake housing on my tractor. I've got the brake assembly removed, and am down to the bolted on plate (see picture). In reading some posts all over, the 'net, I was under the impression that I should be able to re-seal the shaft without going inside the gearbox. However, I can't seem to get this last plate off. Forcing things isn't my style, so I've stopped before I break anything. I'd read in a post on a different forum that a guy with a 434 went into his gearbox, and further in his thread, someone stated that there were 3 bolt holes that you use as jackscrews to remove it. ?? The thread wasn't followed up on, so I don't know the end result of either. Any help would be much appreciated.
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Don?t go any further. Clean up that area as best you can with rags and carb cleaner. Screw a couple sheet metal screws into the face of the seal,
then ?lift? or pry the old seal out of its bore. Use a screwdriver and something for a fulcrum. Or a Wondebar. Or a bar called a ?lady-slipper? works, too.

If the shaft has any groove or other damage, don?t drive the new seal in quite as far, (or if you can, drive it a tad deeper) to avoid the old groove.
 
So, the 1" thick rusty part that is around the shaft is separate from the bearing cage? (Its difficult to see, as the fender and control levers for the loader are in the way... And I'm little pudgy. Lol)
 
(quoted from post at 13:12:56 12/08/18) So, the 1" thick rusty part that is around the shaft is separate from the bearing cage? (Its difficult to see, as the fender and control levers for the loader are in the way... And I'm little pudgy. Lol)
I looked again, buy don't see a seal to pry out?
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very easy just look into those threaded holes and see if its a dead end to the housing or housing is also threaded. then u have your answer to push it off with bolts.
or... do the screw in seal thing.
 

Hey, rustred. I've stopped until I get a more definitive answer. Looking at the last picture I posted, I don't see a seal to screw into, which is what I was expecting to find. The only threaded holes I have, aside from what holds the bearing cage to the case, are the holes for the brake housing attach bolts. I screwed the bolts in and started to turn them. While the cage did begin to separate, I noticed the main axle wanted to start turning (maybe because I left it in gear, thinking back now). The bolts started to get some resistance, so I stopped. I really cannot afford to break anything here. Please let me know your thoughts before I go any further.
 
Kerplooy,
I think that whole reddish metal IS the seal. Have you got the new seal? Does it look like the one that?s in there now?
 
(quoted from post at 18:11:34 12/08/18) Kerplooy,
I think that whole reddish metal IS the seal. Have you got the new seal? Does it look like the one that?s in there now?

The part I have looks differently from what I see on the tractor. Honestly, the dark ring on the tractor just looks like a part of the bearing cage that has some rust on it. I took a pic of the new seal against the cage;
mvphoto27712.jpg
 
ok, im not really familiar with that model. giving info from what i can see. but i would say that brg. retainer plate has to come off to get at the seal and brg. yes it will be a tight fit so it will come off hard. best to use an impact air gun for that.appears like its 1/2" bolts so be 3/4 " socket.
 
Rustred, the bolts are 3/4 heads. All of the stuff I've found are mostly H Model nightmare stories of people breaking off the ear on their bearing cages. I think on the H, the PTO has to come out along with some other stuff in order to do this seal. One other thread I found had a statement that the 444 was built like earlier models, so I've been very hesitant to go at it with any kind of force. The only procedure I can find in the shop manual is doing this seal after the shaft has been removed, so its unclear as to whether or not the shaft actually needs to be removed, or it just so happened to follow the shaft removal section in the manual.
 
(quoted from post at 12:08:54 12/08/18) As I mentioned in a seperate post, I have leaking fluid through the brake housing on my tractor. I've got the brake assembly removed, and am down to the bolted on plate (see picture). In reading some posts all over, the 'net, I was under the impression that I should be able to re-seal the shaft without going inside the gearbox. However, I can't seem to get this last plate off. Forcing things isn't my style, so I've stopped before I break anything. I'd read in a post on a different forum that a guy with a 434 went into his gearbox, and further in his thread, someone stated that there were 3 bolt holes that you use as jackscrews to remove it. ?? The thread wasn't followed up on, so I don't know the end result of either. Any help would be much appreciated.
mvphoto27695.jpg
U
Mine used to leak like that , until I quit overfilling the transmission.
 
I could see how that could definitely be a problem, but this started leaking after I bought the tractor and started using it. I had not added any fluid to it, so I believe the seals were dry and cracked, as it sat for an unknown period (years) before I got it.
 

Go to Hoobers site if you have not done so. You should be able to pull up your specific tractor and then a diagram and description of every part on it. I believe it will be extremely helpful to you in answering your issue.
 

Not absolutely sure , but I think the rusty red metal thing is the bearing and my wild but educated guess is that the seal is behind it . I have
looked at the diagrams and it appears that way but I cannot say with 100 percent certainty .
 
I believe I may have ordered the wrong seal. Looking at the Powertrain Diagram B-08 on Hoobers site, I believe I need #22 (P/N 751080R91). When I Google that P/N, it looks more like that rusty area in the picture. I will try digging around the edge of that area tomorrow to see whether or not it is the seal or something else.
 
In order to remove that plate and access the seal I
think you?ll have to remove the lift cover / rockshaft
housing and then remove the bull gear from the rear
axle. Continuing to pry or use the jack screws on
the pinion carrier (the plate you?re trying to remove)
will likely break it. Good luck. Sam
 
your not going to like this... tractor sam is correct. the axle needs to come out and bull gear slide back. then you pull the bull pinion out and change the seal. it appears like you have the correct seal. your in for a lot of work , so may as well replace all seals at this time, both sides.
 
Hi Kerplooey, there was someone on this site that had a post with pictures on how to pull that housing out. You have to lift
hydraulic housing off and remove the bull gear off the end of axle before that housing will come out. I believe there is enough
wiggill room to remove bull gear without having to pull the axle. You may have to remove the fender to have clearance to remove
the housing cage.
The top of bull gear fits inside the housing cage so the housing cannot be removed with the bull gear in place.
I tried to find the post but could not but I posted a link to a UK site that has the procedure for this series of IH Bradford UK
build tractors.

Hope this helps
JimB
Link to Bradford UK Built Tractors
 
Ugh. I was really hoping to not have to go through all of that. The brake housing was holding about a cup or more of fluid, so the brake linings are shot, too. Thanks for your help, and of that procedure comes up, please provide the link here. Someone had mentioned it on my previous thread, but I could never find it.
 
Thanks for the links, guys! HimB, it looks as though I could get away with not pulling the rear axles, using the bar as a support. Does that seem accurate?
 
nope, wont happen,gotta pull axles to get cage out. only other option is going through the pto hole to remove bolt on axle. this saves removing trans. cover . did that on my massey 97 years back when changing axles. saved a lot of work.
 
Hi, I sent the Poster on the RPF a message and hopefully he will reply and maybe he can connect directly with you.
But looking at his pictures he was able to remove bull gear without removing axle but it would appear you require a large wrench
or a large adjustable wrench.

PS, on the farm I grew up on we had B-414, 434 and 384 just like your 444. We put allot of hours on them all with very little
problem.

JimB
 
Thanks, guys. I guess sometimes you're the windshield, and sometimes you're the bug. Once I peel myself off the windshield, I'll get to putting together a parts list. I'm thinking that is this seal went out after it sitting, maybe I should just do the axle seals as well? Not looking for extra work, but I don't want to have to do this again anytime soon.
 
axle seals are not the problem but it is also extra work but can be done at any time. your choice on them. you will be unbolting axle housing from diff housing and sliding complete unit out. the important thing is to get both bull pinion shaft seals done . and seals just dont go bad from sitting... it had to be in bad shape already once parked. and... you cant make a parts list till you have everything disassembled and thats when you see whats needed.
 
HI Kerplooy

Im the RPF member mentioned prior.

- Axle and PTO shaft must come out to remove the brake plate/ diff carrier.

the seal you have looks right and must come out from inside. you will need to remove the differential carrier bearing race and the floating roller bearing inside to get to the seal and press it correctly in place. its not a quick fix.

i am new here and not sure how to post the pictures i took. I gave them to Jim, maybe he can post them here for you or PM me trough RPF.

I did this job over the summer and its still pretty fresh in my mind. feel free to ask me questions along the way.

take care, Al
 
(quoted from post at 14:23:46 12/10/18) HI Kerplooy

Im the RPF member mentioned prior.

- Axle and PTO shaft must come out to remove the brake plate/ diff carrier.

the seal you have looks right and must come out from inside. you will need to remove the differential carrier bearing race and the floating roller bearing inside to get to the seal and press it correctly in place. its not a quick fix.

i am new here and not sure how to post the pictures i took. I gave them to Jim, maybe he can post them here for you or PM me trough RPF.

I did this job over the summer and its still pretty fresh in my mind. feel free to ask me questions along the way.

take care, Al

I am overwhelmed at the level of support that I've received with this issue. Thank you all very much. Al, I have been studying the link provided from your repair quite extensively over the past 24 hours. The good news is, I don't absolutely have to have the tractor operational right now. Granted, I could be using it for some things but I can get by to get a proper fix on it. I will reach out as I run into issues, which I am sure I will. I have begun compiling a list of parts that I need up to this point. If there are any items that you can possibly think of that may easily be forgotten, please let me know and I will add them to my shopping list. Thanks again!
 
Hi, does your 444 have Hytran or 80 wt gear oil in the trans/diff?

Reply from poster a RPF: He suggested this youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXSLhr9aybU
Hi Jim,
I am not a member of YT but please feel free to respond on my behalf or get him to sign up here and PM if he needs some help.

I did pull the axle out, i had no choice, but i did leave the bull gear in the trans tub. Pulling the axle was a breeze
compared to the fun i had getting the hydraulic valve back in ( removal not required for what he is doing, i had a leak that i
adressed while the tub was off ) The PTO shaft will need to be removed too to make room for the bull gear, there is just enough
room to get the break carrier out if you set the bull gear to right angle lol trust me it took a good 20 minutes of wrestling
with it ...

He will need a 1-1/8" combi wrench and a long pry-bar to crack the axle bolt. I would not recommend doing this through the PTO
hole, the hydraulic tub must come off. especially to get the bull gear back on, its a 3 hand job...

The 20 minute fender removal detour was worth the time by far
here's a picture of it out, i thought i took more pix of this part but it was so quick and easy ....

I found this guy's videos very helpful during this project. pass this link along. he has one on PTO shaft removal too. again,
not hard part of the project.

Jim,



I took the time to read trough his hole post. the seal he is looking to replace come out from the inside of the carrier. its
ugly to get to, i didn't replace mine as it was fine. you can kinda see it behind the floating bearing.

he will need to pull the differential bearing race out of the carrier and move out the floating bearing to be able to press the
new seal in... not going to be a fun job and will require an in-board bearing and race puller set and a good press to get it
back together..

one thing i forgot to mention when putting the axle back in, need some small hands to fish around from inside the transmission
case, there is a floating bearing race that stays inside the axle trumpet... that needs to be slipped back on once the axle is
about 80% of the way back in.

Hope this helps
JimB
 
JimB2, I'm not sure which fluid is in the case, as I haven't drained it yet. What leaked out on thr floor looks on the clear side in color, but if it was taken care of like the rest of the tractor, the fluid may be 50 years old, so the pigmentation may be gone. It smells like gear oil, but I don't know what Hytran smells like, either. I was hoping it may be more evident once I drained it out. Now, looking at the Operators Manual, it states to use Hytran. So, all of that to basically say I really don't know. I had bought several pails of Traveller Brand Hyd fluid from TSC to use in it and flush everything out, but I still need to figure this out.
 
Hi, the reason I ask about trans/diff is Hytran or 80WT gear oil is that originally these Bradford UK build tractors had 80WT gear
oil in the trans/diff. At some point in production IH changed to use Hytran in everything. The disadvantages of Hytran is it is
much thinner and will leak where 80WT gear oil will not. The advantages of Hytran is the trans/diff can also be used as a
hydraulic reservoir, no requirement for a separate hydraulic reservoir. Since your 444 is painted yellow it could be an industrial
model that uses the trans/diff as a hydraulic reservoir. Also in the cold weather transmissions with Hytran were much easier to
shift gears in.
If it is not leaking a lot you could try a solution that an old IH Mechanic told my brother was to add some GM ATF to anything
that has leaking oil seals and it may stop the leak. My brother has had good success with ATF stopping minor leaks.

JimB
 
I believe that this particular tractor is just a US built 68 that had yellow on it from the factory, not an industrial model (2444). When I first bought it, I remember confirming that via the serial number or something. I don't know that I would consider this a minor leak. A bit of oily mess I can deal with, but over the course of a week, it was leaving a 2-3 foot puddle of fluid on the floor, and it did that 3 times in 3 weeks or better (after I caught on to it, I put a pan underneath to catch it.)
 
With the house empty, I finally seized the opportunity to get on this project. I've worked 7 am to 4 pm 2 days in a row, and am just about to set the hydraulic tub back on. I opted to pull the axles from the housings and replace the seals for some added insurance. I had some help on day 2 in getting the axles and gears back in... definitely recommended. I'm guessing what I drained from the trans and hydraulics was HyTran, as it was definitely not gear oil. It had the consistency of 40 or 50 wt oil, Brown, maybe Pink tinge to it, and smelled like Hell; a very similar stank to that of formaldehyde. Aside from the VERY helpful links provided in this thread (thank you), I don't have too much to add, other than a little trick I came up with to get the clip off of the diff lock shaft. I just used a hose clamp and a larger washer with one of the brake housing bolts to act as a fulcrum with a prybar and couple blocks of wood to hold it in place. Its definitely a shadetree technique, you gotta do what you gotta do when working alone!
mvphoto32237.jpg
 

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