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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
:

Farmall M - Wanting to use a tiller

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StephenM

02-11-2019 19:53:23




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I picked up a 1951 Farmall M about 6 months ago from a local guy who works on antique tractors and does small pulls with them. Tractor is in great shape and runs fine, engine is also from a Super M per my understanding from him. Mostly bought it because itís cool and I have always wanted an old farmall lol.

Anyways Iím wondering now if I can use it with a tiller if I bought a 3 point hitch adapter kit for it. The tiller is a 5ft from Rural King. Weighs 727 pounds. So main questions are will I need front weights and from I have been reading on other pages I have a belly pump model? I have hydronic two ports on the right side coming from the ďbellyĒ of the tractor roughly in the middle . There is also 1 lever that runs up to the operator which I assume is for engage/disengage or raise/lower.

Based on that I read I can only lift the tiller if the clutch is released (Iím driving) and itís gravity lowered. Any truth to this? Would it be feasible to operate the tiller this way? Also Iím assuming every time I need to stop that the tiller will lower lol?

Please forgive all my noob questions. Just trying to see what I would be getting into if I make these purchases. Thanks in advance!

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David G

02-13-2019 16:12:26




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 Re: Farmall M - Wanting to use a tiller in reply to StephenM, 02-11-2019 19:53:23  
Two issues, no live PTO and geared way too fast for a tiller.



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BarnyardEngineering

02-13-2019 10:42:36




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 Re: Farmall M - Wanting to use a tiller in reply to StephenM, 02-11-2019 19:53:23  
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Won't work. I thought of that too.

In order for the belt pulley to drive the wheels, the tractor has to be in gear, and if you let out the clutch with the tractor in gear so the PTO will drive the rototiller, the tractor wheels will be driven by the engine.

If it was a Super MTA or newer tractor with independent PTO, this idea would work.

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thastinger

02-13-2019 08:20:58




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 Re: Farmall M - Wanting to use a tiller in reply to StephenM, 02-11-2019 19:53:23  
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My 49 C run a 4ft just fine. I offset it a little right to cover my right tire track, my wheels are almost all the way in. Yes, it is a little too fast but just go over it a couple times. It isn't an ideal setup, it work the tractor hard on full depth cut but for my 50x150 garden it beats TF out of doing it with a rear tine.



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F-Dean

02-12-2019 12:29:41




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 Re: Farmall M - Wanting to use a tiller in reply to StephenM, 02-11-2019 19:53:23  
Didn't someone make a slow 1st called a "Picker Gear?"



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John M

02-13-2019 03:16:50




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 Re: Farmall M - Wanting to use a tiller in reply to F-Dean, 02-12-2019 12:29:41  
There was a low 1st, and a low, low first.



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Olyj1947

02-12-2019 08:54:39




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 Re: Farmall M - Wanting to use a tiller in reply to StephenM, 02-11-2019 19:53:23  
I had the same plan when I bought my M with a Saginaw 3 point hitch. Low isn't slow enough. Plus a 5 foot tiller will not cover the tire tracks. I plow mine in the fall so it's quite mellow. I use a 4600 Deere with a hydro and catch some flak! Good luck.



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DanMD

02-12-2019 07:26:39




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 Re: Farmall M - Wanting to use a tiller in reply to StephenM, 02-11-2019 19:53:23  
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Wouldn't it still be better than doing it by hand? If I had everything laying around, I'd try it as you suggest and then let everyone on here know how it works. I too have read on here of some people saying it works just fine, but you have to take partial swipes.



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BarnyardEngineering

02-12-2019 06:16:41




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 Re: Farmall M - Wanting to use a tiller in reply to StephenM, 02-11-2019 19:53:23  
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Then you'll get someone on here who rototills with their 300 Utility and it works "just fine."
Of course they're tilling up loose sand or loam, not trying to chew up fresh sod for a new garden, work gravel ground, or even just till a garden that's been sitting untouched over the winter.



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rustyfarmall

02-12-2019 05:46:03




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 Re: Farmall M - Wanting to use a tiller in reply to StephenM, 02-11-2019 19:53:23  
In a nutshell, it won't work. The M is not geared slow enough.



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BarnyardEngineering

02-12-2019 04:14:55




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 Re: Farmall M - Wanting to use a tiller in reply to StephenM, 02-11-2019 19:53:23  
If you've already got all the equipment, you can try it and prove it to yourself one way or the other, but you probably won't be happy with the results. Tractor's plenty heavy enough up front to lift a 5ft tiller, especially for a test run.

In order for the tractor to go slow enough for the tiller to do a good job, your only choice is to idle the engine down. However when you idle the engine down, the tiller is not turning fast enough to do a good job! It's a catch-22 situation.

Tiller tractors typically have a creeper gear or are hydrostatically driven so they can be running at full throttle while moving along at a slow shuffle. Even the 1.5MPH quoted above is 3X as fast as you should be going on a first pass in unprepared ground with a tiller.

Unfortunately there is no such creeper gear available for an M.

Your best results will probably be from putting the tractor in Neutral, and letting the tiller pull the tractor along, controlling speed with the brakes.

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steve_in_mo

02-12-2019 15:37:43




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 Re: Farmall M - Wanting to use a tiller in reply to BarnyardEngineering, 02-12-2019 04:14:55  
There is a way to run an M slow enough for tilling, and that's to hook a
hydraulic motor up to the belt pulley. Of course, you'd need more hydraulic power to do that than you get from the belly pump, but if you're going to dream, don't stop with the little stuff.



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CenTex Farmall

02-11-2019 22:46:53




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 Re: Farmall M - Wanting to use a tiller in reply to StephenM, 02-11-2019 19:53:23  
The belly pump is a self contained pump and reservoir. It runs off the front of the transmission countershaft, so yes when you disengage the clutch the hydraulic pump stops turning. The PTO engages on the other end of the countershaft and likewise loses power when you push in the clutch.

Any time the clutch is engaged the hydraulic pump is turning. No pressure is being developed, just circulating the oil. The lever and rod that comes out of the box on the side, when you pull it all the way back you block a bypass valve and the pump instantly sends oil to all three ports (and on to cylinders). When you release the lever and it slides down and stops on the little block welded to the operating rod the cylinder should hold position. When you lift the rod past the block and push it down you release all pressure and the oil flows back into the three ports in reverse and dumps into the reservoir.

So, as made it delivers pressure on one side of the cylinder and gravity for down pressure. However, you can add a two way hydraulic valve and plumb the thing to where you have pressure on both sides of your hydraulic cylinder. The rod is wired or otherwise held all the way back and oil is pumped all the time through one of the ports (plug the other two) and up to the valve (open center type). When you move the valve lever the oil is directed to either side of the cylinder and develops pressure. The exhaust from the valve is plumbed back to the reservoir either teed into the drain plug hole in the bottom or the filler at the top. I like to plumb them in from the top so as not to disturb any trash that settles to the bottom of the reservoir. In any case now you have two way hydraulics but it still only works when the clutch is engaged. Use the search function as there have been some good drawings and photos of the setup for two way hydraulics posted before.

The hydraulic pump itself is quite overbuilt and should develop 700-800 psi. With a dual cylinder three point hitch it will pick up any round bale or any piece of equipment that the tractor could pull through the dirt. It will easily pick up a tiller. You may need some weight on the front but not too much, I would guess a 100Lb or so.

As for actually operating the tiller, I'm afraid it's a no-go! 1st gear is simply too fast for one. If your ground was already like bagged potting soil it might work but in reality I think you're going to end up breaking the tiller in short order. I've never tried or seen anyone try it with a Farmall. There might be a way if you had the two way hydraulics and made multiple passes and dropped and inch or two on each pass but I'm just conjecturing. Maybe someone else will chime in.

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Brendon-KS

02-11-2019 20:07:05




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 Re: Farmall M - Wanting to use a tiller in reply to StephenM, 02-11-2019 19:53:23  
The biggest problem of using that tractor for a tiller is the fast first gear. The M moves along at around 2.5 mph in first and for tilling you really need something more like 1.5 mph max. In light, mellow ground it would probably do OK but for turning under surface residue or breaking tough ground it will be plenty fast.



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FastFarmall

02-12-2019 03:32:42




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 Re: Farmall M - Wanting to use a tiller in reply to Brendon-KS, 02-11-2019 20:07:05  
Well if you got at least a 1,000 lbs of hyd pressure, and it's a gasoline engine i presume,you will need a X1A, on the suffix of the serial number, to have slow enough gears[speeds,] then you got a chance of making it all work !



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