Farmall 560 diesel head issues

dsp

Member
Since the weather's so crummy I've had time to finish putting the 560D back together and ran into a pretty big issue. The head was taken to a machine shop and had to be surfaced since it had a slight warp on one end and the valves were done at that time. The head was put back on with studs from Murphy's and torqued to their specs. Long story short, when I filled it up with coolant earlier today I noticed coolant weeping from between the block and head in at least 2 spots on the right side of the motor. This is with the engine off and not under any pressure. The head was already slightly under minimums before it was surfaced but everyone I asked about about it seemed to think it was a non-issue since the head was un-cracked and in otherwise great shape. I'm at a loss as to what is causing this, could being a couple thousandth's under minimums case it to not seal correctly? Head was installed with a new Fel-Pro head gasket. The best I could measure, the sleeve standout was within spec, though I'm not sure how that would relate to my current problem. Any help you guys can provide will be greatly appreciated. 

Thank you,

Dan
 
Were it mine:
I would retorque the head as follows: starting with the center of the torque pattern, I would break loose the static set of the bolt by turning in the "looser"
counter clockwise direction until is just moves an eighth turn. then retighten to full torque spec on that bolt. You may find it turns as much as 20 degrees
farther. repeat this on all bolts in the pattern, and then recheck them all. If the seeping still happens, it your choice to either run it to temp, and retorque
warmed up, or pull the head and look at deck (block) flatness. If sleeve standout is more than maximum, it can hold the head from full compression of the gasket.
Running it with a stop leak is not sinful, but can produce real world results. Jim
 
I have run into this before but not on the 282, it was the wd6 diesel engine. start it and run it to temp. then retorque the head to 120 ft lbs. yes I know factory is 115 ft lbs. this probably happened because you used no gasket sealer. .. and the gasket has sealer built into it so it must be run to temp. to seal. I always use Permatex high tack sealer on those heads. don't forget to reset valves also. .. to .027 hot.
 
Did the head gasket fit around the top of the sleeve or set on top of the sleeve? If on top that is your problem. I would also be leary of the milling job.
 
(quoted from post at 14:44:37 01/19/19) I have run into this before but not on the 282, it was the wd6 diesel engine. start it and run it to temp. then retorque the head to 120 ft lbs. yes I know factory is 115 ft lbs. this probably happened because you used no gasket sealer. .. and the gasket has sealer built into it so it must be run to temp. to seal. I always use Permatex high tack sealer on those heads. don't forget to reset valves also. .. to .027 hot.

I used copper coat on both sides of the head gasket before it was put on. The torque specs I got for the stud kit from Murphy's was 125 for the short and 130 for the long ones. Valves were reset to cold spec which I think was .029.
 
(quoted from post at 14:57:52 01/19/19) Did the head gasket fit around the top of the sleeve or set on top of the sleeve? If on top that is your problem. I would also be leary of the milling job.

For that motor, the gasket seals on the sleeves. As far as I remember the standout was on the high end but still in spec.
 
There are two IH blocks that fit, early D282 used slip fit wide flange sleeves that the head gasket compression ring sets on. The late heavy press fit THIN flange sleeve like my 560 had installed as a short block years ago, the gasket compression seals on the block, same as the D301 no sleeve engine. I'd leave off the belts and warm it up to 180-190 and retorque the head HOT. I've seen other make engines do the same thing, and the hot retorque has worked each time. The WATER passage is what's seeping, when the engine is hot and COMPRESSION ring gets crushed a bit more with the retorque, then the water can seal better too. If early block sleeve standout is too high, don't count on it ever sealing right..
 
have u had the engine running??? if not then no sense getting all worked up about it leaking. they seal themselves once hot.
 
plus the head has to be re- torqued while the engine is at operating temperature, not room temperature! its only a few minutes to get valve cover off while hot. then reset the valves, as original setting will be tight. the sleeve standout is .032-.044. if your wondering.
 
(quoted from post at 16:09:19 01/19/19) have u had the engine running??? if not then no sense getting all worked up about it leaking. they seal themselves once hot.

I haven't had the engine running yet. There was some corrosion around the water passages where the rubber grommet is but it was so slight it was hard to get a dental pick to catch in it. Between the gasket sealer and rubber grommet I didn't think it would be an issue, but may be quite wrong. I think I've gotten so far I might as well keep going, hook the injectors back up and see what happens after a hot re-torque.
 
Well myself i have never used studs so cant say one way or the other . Now as to fel Pro gskts each and every one that i have used cost me nothing but grief and they all leaked . even called fel pro on it and was told i did not know how to install and torque a head gskt. Ok guess after working on engines from mild to wild i dpn't know what i am doing . So i had to rethink this problem on how to solve it , that was tough . I came up with a plan just don't use Fel Pro . I use Victor now and only Victor , problem solved . When you working on the customers dime the last thing you want is problems and then it becomes your problem and now your working on your dime . Looking for the Cheapest part can come back and BITE you . Tryen to reinvent the wheel can bite you . Not knowing all the trick of the trade can bite you . Make sure that you are not bottoming out on the threads and getting a false torque reading . Uneven torque is not what you want . The torque on ALL bolts are the same on that engine .
 
I had a customer with a 706 with the same engine that was hard on head gaskets. I made spacers on the lathe by drilling short pieces of shaft so all the bolts were the same length. Long ones. That with new bolts took care of it.
 
Well, everyone has good advice. One time that happened to me on my brother's jeep engine. I told him how I wanted him to clean things, but he thought they were clean enough. I didn't check his work, just installed the heads. What I found was the threads on the head bolts needed to be wire brushed clean, and that a tap needed to be run down in the head bolt holes, to clean the threads.
I always oil the bolts and washers under the head, and let the oil drain off. Torque in 3 steps to the final torque in sequence. Then I wait a bit and redo the final torque in sequence. I never retorque after running, and, so far, never had a leak. Mark.
 

The sleeve standout was on the high end of acceptable so I really hope that isn't the issue. Can't afford to have it trailered and worked on anywhere right now and can't really split it myself with my current setup. Since I'm so close to having it all back together I'll see if I can get it started and do a hot re-torque and see what happens. I'll have to wait at least a few days since I have a ton of snow to shovel/plow and it's currently single digits and I have no heated workspace. If it gets up into the mid/high 20's I can at least get the place lukewarm/chilly.
 
why does it have to be split? also I don't know why a person would put studs in , as that just makes for a whole pile of more work when changing head gaskets. meaning fuel tank has to come off. with sleeve stand out you want them without much variation. I have replaced a lot of head gaskets along with overhauls and yet to have one leak at any time. care must be taken and even use guide studs to install the head. but since you have studs you don't need to go through that. and it appears your doing this in the cold so that's another reason things don't seal good.
 

The head was originally torqued down when it was in the 50's out, so not really very cold. As for the studs, you don't need to remove the tank, just prop it and the shield up with a large block of wood and you have enough room install the head. I have had issues in the past with even OEM head bolts failing before they got to the required torque. I just got into the habit of using ARP studs since for a lot of my applications over the years replacement OEM bolts were damn near the same cost as the studs and I never had an issue with them.
 
don't see how unless your propping it up pretty high. I remove the 4 bolts on the tank support and prop the tank up and have just enough room to remove the head by sliding it sideways. even to remove pushrods is a trick due to tank shield. so if you have studs in the block the head has to come up pretty high. I also have changed heads without even touching the tank.
 

I just took the four bolts out, lifted up the tank/shield and put a piece of railroad tie under there. It gets it up high enough to get the head on/off. No doubt there's easier ways but I didn't find this one to be particularly hard or time consuming.
 
He stated the machine shop said the head was already thinner the spec. and the cut somemore off . Then he went with and after market stud deal tryen to make it better and then add in the short bolts or studs were pulled down to 120 and the long studs on the rocker side were to go 130 . Worked on many 282 's and I have never used studs , replace a few heard bolts due to rust pitting had lots of problems with Fel PRO .
 
(quoted from post at 08:53:05 01/21/19) He stated the machine shop said the head was already thinner the spec. and the cut somemore off . Then he went with and after market stud deal tryen to make it better and then add in the short bolts or studs were pulled down to 120 and the long studs on the rocker side were to go 130 . Worked on many 282 's and I have never used studs , replace a few heard bolts due to rust pitting had lots of problems with Fel PRO .

I used the head I had since the only other ones I could find were at least $900 in unknown as is condition plus shipping and mine was at least uncracked. The head bolts needed to be replaced anyway since half of them were pretty heavily pitted. Given the choice I'll always use ARP studs over aftermarket head bolts so that's the way I went. As for the torque on the studs it was 125 and 130 and was the recommendation from the machine shop that put the kit together. Yes it seemed strange to have 2 different settings but I didn't have any other reference so I went with their recommendation. I've had issues with gaskets from all makers, I just went with the Fel-pro since guys were saying they were the OEM for the gasket from CNH. Is there a far superior head gasket for the D282 that you would recommend?
 
tractor vet answered that question yesterday... it is" VICTOR" gaskets. and throw them studs in the bush.
 
holy man that's a job in itself getting it that high. so much info you have here ,... but you got to start the engine first on the list, and do the retorque and valve set. I know that from cold torque to hot torque you will get another 1/3 of a turn on those bolts for sure. loosening first is not necessary either. I just replaced a head gasket on a 282 last summer for my buddy that had an engine job done in the ih garage. it was not retorqued and he was getting bubbles in rad. I replaced the gasket with a retorque and was good then. also when u have machined flat surfaces a person does not need to rely on an extra gasket sealer.
 

Thanks rust, I appreciate the advice. I'm planning on trying to get it started and try a hot re-torque or two I just need the weather to warm up a bit first.
 
UPDATE: Finally had time and warmer weather so finished up a few small things and tried to start the tractor so I could do a hot re-torque. Now the darn thing doesn't even want to try to start. When I went to prime it I found out the old hand primer pump was leaking pretty bad so I just replaced it with a length of regular line. Bled both filters and ran into trouble when I tried to bleed the lines. Doesn't matter if I try them one at a time or all at once, fuel only comes out of numbers 3&5. This is with the nuts pretty well loosened and making sure the fuel line is loose as well. Fully charged battery(each time), new glow plugs in working order, new gaskets and seals for injectors/pre cups, pre-cups correctly oriented and this thing doesn't even want to try to kick over. I know it's getting air and compression wasn't an issue even with the old, blown head gasket so I can't see why that would be an issue now, which leaves me with fuel, or lack thereof. Any help will be greatly appreciated, this damn thing is starting to drive me crazy.
 

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