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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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seal installation -need help

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warren woodrow

10-31-2018 19:02:06




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Just ruined a $20 dollar seal . Hydraulic reservoir on my 424 was leaking around the draft control plunger seal . Ive installed regular oil seals but this one is very different than an axle or pto seal . It is about 1/2 inch in depth and comprised of rubber seemingly around an inner hidden metal part . I ordered exact replacement from IH and it looks to be same size and type as the one I removed . I put it in freezer like I always do and lubed it up good. Tried it with writing side out first and would not go so then tried the opposite direction and again no go. I used the old flat surface to try to drive it in and again nothing doing. Is there a trick to this. Maybe pack in dry ice ? The part was available so it must be servicable . Any and all help will be appreciated . Great tractor except for the leaks and fluid has gotten expensive .

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warren woodrow

11-04-2018 19:35:29




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 Re: seal installation -need help in reply to warren woodrow, 10-31-2018 19:02:06  
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Nope. And my darn service manual is an internet knock off that looks like someone took bits and pieces of several manuals and three together. All I have is Blue Ribbon forum help. !!



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Bob

11-04-2018 19:12:29




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 Re: seal installation -need help in reply to warren woodrow, 10-31-2018 19:02:06  
Do you have the appropriate "Hitch" Blue Ribbon Service Manual"?



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Bob

11-04-2018 18:24:08




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 Re: seal installation -need help in reply to warren woodrow, 10-31-2018 19:02:06  
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That's GREAT news!

I have to sympathize with you about holding off on "going in deeper".

I have a 424 with a "lowering valve" issue, perhaps a tiny spring broken, and have put up with a poorly functioning "hitch" for quite a few years, 'cause I haven't wanted to take all that *#%& apart, either!



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warren woodrow

11-04-2018 18:41:41




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 Re: seal installation -need help in reply to Bob, 11-04-2018 18:24:08  
Thanks . I am hoping that when I get the access plate off that I can get to the o-ring to service it fairly easily . I am hoping the trick of removing those bolts will be welding nut on them to remove them . Once inside I am again going to be cautious as the local IH [ young ] mechanic advised me against going in there as he stated he tried one and would never work on it again . Im gonna look and see if it can really be that bad .

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warren woodrow

11-04-2018 18:17:23




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 Re: seal installation -need help in reply to warren woodrow, 10-31-2018 19:02:06  
Just an update on the seal . It rained today so I had time to kill in the shop . I finally decided { as some have kindly suggested } that I was most likely looking at remains of the original seal . I took a small screw driver and hammer and gently pecked at the edge and it easily dented so I knew it was a remnant of the seal I pulled . It came out easily and I am ready to put a new one in . I guess I was being too careful as I am overly cautious about tearing old things up that can be hard to find parts for . Thanks to everyone who offered help . I truly enjoy this board and and all who try to help .

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warren woodrow

11-02-2018 13:04:13




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 Re: seal installation -need help in reply to warren woodrow, 10-31-2018 19:02:06  
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No drama involved Bob. But common sense dictates that if the new seal did not have the " metal insert " then it is not a given that what I am looking at it is meant to be " dug out " . Also, as I have stated already I have the inner o-ring but planned to replace this other seal first . The inner o-ring replacement requires that I get 5 of the previously reamed off [ by previous owner ] and corroded beyond recognition bolts that hold the lift access plate to come out . I have been successful in removing three of them and plan to weld a nut on the others as soon as I have time to do so. Since I appreciate your help Ill only state that I don't do drama but my experience in diesel mechanics school taught me to be sure of what I was doing before I tore something up that could be hard to fix. Again , thanks for trying to help .

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Bob

11-01-2018 21:04:47




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 Re: seal installation -need help in reply to warren woodrow, 10-31-2018 19:02:06  
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IH didn't put that O-ring deep in there for laughs and giggles, it's what keeps the oil where it needs to be, IMHO.

If you don't plan on "going deep" and replacing it, we can't help you with your $$$ oil leak.

As to all the drama with the remains of the old dust seal, for gosh sakes, just dig it out and throw it away to make room for the new dust seal. The parts breakdown doesn't show an insert in there, confirming that what you are looking at is a remnant of the old seal.

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Bkpigs

11-01-2018 18:36:22




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 Re: seal installation -need help in reply to warren woodrow, 10-31-2018 19:02:06  
Can you post a picture of the housing?



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warren woodrow

11-01-2018 20:26:01




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 Re: seal installation -need help in reply to Bkpigs, 11-01-2018 18:36:22  
Yes, I plan to do that . Probably have to get kids to show me how !! Beginning to think that although the seal I bought is exactly like the one I removed, that possibly for some reason the replacement procedure may involve removing the pressed in insert/ sleeve . For that to be the case then my new seal would have to be minutely larger in diameter than the one I removed . Will get pics as soon as I figure out how to do it .

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Bob

11-01-2018 05:24:15




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 Re: seal installation -need help in reply to warren woodrow, 10-31-2018 19:02:06  
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"There appears to be somewhat of a metal " insert " inside the housing"

Now this is starting to make sense... I'll bet that "insert" is part of the old 'dust seal" that used to be bonded to the rubber seal.

Bet when you pop it out of there a new seal will fit.

Still doesn't solve the need to go into it farther to replace the O-ring, tho!

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warren woodrow

11-01-2018 15:21:01




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 Re: seal installation -need help in reply to Bob, 11-01-2018 05:24:15  
I purchased o ring when I purchased this seal but it requires getting inside the lift . I considered your thought but the seal I ordered does not have an outer metal insert so not sure about that . Also, it appears to be pressed in so I need to be sure before I start prying on it. The plunger seal is identified as an oil seal by International Harvester although it is possibly more of a dust seal . It appears that the new seal WOULD fit if it was possible to remove the steel pressed in insert but I need to be sure that is the proper fix before I scar that insert up and have a bigger problem . I sure wish Hugh was still around . He helped me out a few times .

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Bob

11-01-2018 05:04:49




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 Re: seal installation -need help in reply to warren woodrow, 10-31-2018 19:02:06  
Warren, I did a little more thinking/checking on this.

I believe sealing the oil in is done by an O-ring inboard of the seal you are trying to replace. The seal is more or less a dust seal.

To replace the O-ring, you have to remove the "depth link plunger".

O-ring description and current CIH part number... O-RING, -111, 70 Duro, .424" ID x .103" Thk

Product No: 128999

The seal is part #3070697R9. (As you already know!)

I would think it will be easier to drive the seal into place while the plunger is removed.

I am lucky to have a lathe, and have made lots of customized seal drivers over the years.

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mattofvinings

11-01-2018 01:37:05




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 Re: seal installation -need help in reply to warren woodrow, 10-31-2018 19:02:06  
Some pictures would help greatly.

Is the inability to install on the ID or the OD? More specifically is there some kind of a "step" on the shaft or is it a smooth shaft and smooth bore?

Ideally there should be some kind of lead-in or chamfer on the bore to help start compressing the seal.

Another tactic is to measure the seal OD and the bore, with something like a dial or digital caliper to see how much interference there is between the two. Measure the old seal if enough of it is still intact. If there is too much interference then something is wrong and no amount of coaxing will help. I can't give you a specific number but I'm going to guess at .032" per 1" of bore diameter is getting up there. If the internal metal structure is larger than the bore it is assured destruction.

I have never put any seals in the freezer. My opinion is one wants the elastomer to be as flexible as possible.

I've always made tools in the shop to put in seals (tubing, lathe, tig weld, etc) to drive them flat and as square as possible. A hammer can work but if a C-clamp or bar clamp can be used, even better.

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warren woodrow

11-01-2018 04:59:23




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 Re: seal installation -need help in reply to mattofvinings, 11-01-2018 01:37:05  
The outside diameter is the problem . It fits over the plunger nicely . There appears to be somewhat of a metal " insert " inside the housing which the seal fits into . The old seal of course was able to fit into it though . I am going to have to find a way to measure as to the naked eye it seems the " lip " of that pressed insert is keeping the seal from starting .



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Bob

10-31-2018 19:47:59




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 Re: seal installation -need help in reply to warren woodrow, 10-31-2018 19:02:06  
If it was in fact a "euro/deutch/NOK" seal that's rubberized and ribbed on the outside, typically they can be popped into place with just finger pressure.

Some rubber lube or dish soap will make it even easier.

(On the other hand, "chilling" a seal that small would have a negligible effect on it's diameter for insertion purposes, and make the rubber less pliable/conformable IMHO.)



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warren woodrow

10-31-2018 21:32:43




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 Re: seal installation -need help in reply to Bob, 10-31-2018 19:47:59  
Thanks . Finger pressure and much more came nowhere close to working . I also used oil and grease Frustrated .



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Rex Simpkins

11-01-2018 02:08:49




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 Re: seal installation -need help in reply to warren woodrow, 10-31-2018 21:32:43  
I have found some of the seals have a varnish-like coating around the outside and have had to use emory cloth to remove it in order to keep from ruining the seal it being too tight. The last one was the seal on a Super C fast hitch control valve



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warren woodrow

11-01-2018 05:01:25




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 Re: seal installation -need help in reply to Rex Simpkins, 11-01-2018 02:08:49  
I will check for that when I purchase a new one . Thanks .,



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