1086 Won't Raise Load On Remotes

My 1086, s/n 60522 with open-center hydraulics, is having an issue with raising my disc when hooked to the remote. Here is what has been done/checked so far:
- Fluid level checked and topped off
- Recent hydraulic filter change (roughly 10 hours of use since change)
- Worked when using my old haybine to raise the cutterbar
- Will extend the cylinder when it is detached from the disc (no load)
- Just to rule out issues, replaced the hose ends on the disc with new ones
- Have tried both of the remotes on the back of the tractor with same results
- It will extend when hooked to disc until the point that the wheels make contact with ground and then that's it, will lift wheels quick and just fine.
- Have tried it with the 3-point lever in various positions. When in the range where it controls the draft response the remotes respond slower/faster for the little bit of movement they actually do, which is the way it is designed.
- The levers seem to have a noticeable detent in the various positions as you would expect them to.

Kind of at a loss as to where to look next without jumping to the conclusion that its the pump. Are there some things I am missing in my troubleshooting? Outside of having the expensive IH Flo Rater gauge setup is there a working-man's way of testing the pressure? Could this problem be related to a check valve issue? I believe this model has a check valve right beneath the cab that the lines coming from the remotes attach to ( at least that is going by the parts diagram, a box shaped device ).
 
There is an o-ring on the output of the hyd pump that could be blown, you need to drain the fluid and pull the pump if o-ring is blown when replacing it they make a plastic retaining ring to go around the o-ring to even pressure, kind of a job but a cheap fix, if that is it. if it is the o-ring your 3 point won't lift with a load on it or will go up then drop.
 
You can put a pressure gage in the remotes, and this will give you a reading of pressure or the lack of depending on the case.
 
In some cases, putting 5 gallons of hytran in the tractor above full will disguise an Oring problem and hurts nothing. Cheap fix if it works. Jim
 
Hate to ask a question such as this, but can I use any hydraulic pressure gauge as long as it is rated to say 3,000 psi or higher? Assume I would just get a fitting to put on end of the hose that I could screw this gauge into correct?
 
Would it stand to reason that if I can lift and hold up a "heavy" load with the 3-point that this would rule out the blown o-ring?
 
Would it stand to reason that if I CAN lift and hold-up a "heavy" load on the 3-point that it will rule out the blown o-ring possibility?
 
This may seem a silly question, but have you tried another cylinder? reversing hoses at quick coupler? moving lever with nothing hooked to hydraulics and listening for engine to load when hyd is dead headed? possible cylinder seals on piston are blown, piston loose on shaft ect.
 
Not silly. No I haven't tried a different cylinder. Did reverse hoses and did hook hoses to the other remote outlet with the same results. Also removed cylinder from the implement and actuated it through its full motion both ways with no problem. Can't say I let it deadhead at the end of the stroke but so far every things I've done has not generated much of "load" sound on the engine.
 
I did try moving controls with nothing hooked up and yes you can hear engine lugging a little, not like its going to choke down but it does change. Would that be as expected on a normal system?
 
If the cylinder is bad, the piston packing might be leaking fluid from one end to the other. Can you get near the haybine to see if it still lifts it? If so, My money is no a bad cylinder piston seal. Jim
 
If you can hold a load on the 3 pt it would also rule out a bad pump and let you know it is your remote outlets or a bad remote cylinder.
 
building pressure would require power that is why it loaded engine slightly, that would also check if you had a mechanical problem in pump drive my take not being there is you have more info to work with until you dead head into a pressure gage. also some people judge by the way hoses jump when pressure spikes as in end of stroke or dead heading.
 
I can and will move it over to the haybine in the morning and give that a try. I figured the haybine head wasn't so heavy to rotate that maybe the hydraulics could handle it. If it does lift it then I will take cylinder off of it and move it to my disc. The disc is a JD 210 13'.
 
I changed the couplers with new ones (even though the ones on it were brand new as well) when this started. I had read on here that some folks were successful in resolving similar issues by doing that. of course I had to be the different one...
 
Adapters. I have two sets of adapters. One is IH to Pioneer (and I have the tips that have the little point on the poppet). The other is IH to old JD (the sort of cone shaped with a round headed poppet). Do you think I need to get a set of the IHC tips and not use the adapters?
 
yup just use a gage of about the 3000 or so. You can just screw it into the coupler itself if you want then use lever to pressurize it take reading or lack of.
 
Ok here is what I tried this morning. Hooked to my 4-row JD 7100 3-pt hitch planters. It lifted them and then held them sitting there idling. However I did note that it seemed to lift them slow. Not creeping but I think it should have lifted them right on up. Tried it with it idling and with a little throttle, same results.

Also moved over to the haybine. It lifted the head all the way up, but again it was pretty slow. Same results idling as with a little throttle. Lowering on both hitch and remotes was normal - fast. Also, I let the haybine's cylinder reach its end of extension stroke and held the lever (actually didn't have to hold it) and the engine never changed its sound as if no load on it.

One more comment. I remember when I used the disc last year that it seemed to lift slow as I was finishing up the field and even seemed to affect the steering when it was lifting. I attributed it to low in fluid and possibly needing a filter change. I did change the filter a few weeks later (wasn't using it) and the screen was definitely covered in crud. But didn't try the disc again after that.
 
Ok here is what I tried this morning. Hooked to my 4-row JD 7100 3-pt hitch planters. It lifted them and then held them sitting there idling. However I did note that it seemed to lift them slow. Not creeping but I think it should have lifted them right on up. Tried it with it idling and with a little throttle, same results.

Also moved over to the haybine. It lifted the head all the way up, but again it was pretty slow. Same results idling as with a little throttle. Lowering on both hitch and remotes was normal - fast. Also, I let the haybine's cylinder reach its end of extension stroke and held the lever (actually didn't have to hold it) and the engine never changed its sound as if no load on it.

One more comment. I remember when I used the disc last year that it seemed to lift slow as I was finishing up the field and even seemed to affect the steering when it was lifting. I attributed it to low in fluid and possibly needing a filter change. I did change the filter a few weeks later (wasn't using it) and the screen was definitely covered in crud. But didn't try the disc again after that. The two may not be related, just sharing the info. Will try to pick up a gauge today.
 
Well the poor mans way is a simple pressure test with a gauge that is rated to 5000 PSI . Now with out going to the truck and looking in the book as i gave up on trying to keep ALL the spec.'s in my head you should be above 2100 PSI at operating temp of the OIL at rated RPM . Now just checking pressure will not give all the answers here . To save time and money the only way is FLOW RATE the system . And yes them FLOW RATERS are not in everybodys tool box . I was LUCKY and got mine at a dealer close up . I bought 98 % of all the I H service tools up to the 88 sires . If your going to do good work on a brand then having the toys to use makes the jobs easier . The flow rater has save many of my customers time and money as i can tell where the problems lie as to lets just start throwing money at it then back pedal to cover our tracks because we were just guessing . And today a good REBUILT OTC 50 GPM 5000 PSI flow rater will set you back over 3500 bucks . SOOOO for you to save time and money find someone thaT HAS A FLOW RATER IN YOUR BACK YARD and have it checked . Then you will know if it is the pump that figured that TODAY was a good day to die or is it the pressure regulator valve . I am probably not anywhere close to ya .
 
Yeah that is exactly the approach I have been trying to take. Today's auto mechanics (not all mind you) sometimes make me think that they throw parts at some engine code vs. real troubleshooting and making sound decisions. It's not all their fault, we've complicated the whole process with our infinite "wisdom" on making things better.

I have been trying to use the wealth of the knowledge of they guys on this site (and believe me it's been worth more than I can say over the years) before I just start replacing parts. I like to "know" that the decision was based on actually doing some checking. I am located in a little town in SC called North. I am probably nowhere near anyone, LOL. But I will ask around to see if someone can do what you say. I'm not opposed to buying a pump if that's needed but I'd like to know that it's a NEED and not a guess.
 
No, I don't think that dealership is still there today. We actually did have an Allis Chalmers dealer in North when I was a kid. Guess that's why granddad had a WD, an AC 170 and a Gleaner E. :)
 
Ok, so a buddy of mine that works at the Caterpillar shop has a hydraulic flow gauge/meter. I realize it isn't IH's flo-rater setup but would it, along with a gauge, still be able to give me useful information to diagnose further?

Could I attach it to a male coupler and plug into my remote or do I have to attach it elsewhere in order to check the flow/pressure properly? If its someplace else, where should it be attached?
 
Well I H did not BUILD there own , it was Farmed out to OTC and yes the flow rate that he has will work . I am sure the one he has is far better then mine as his will do more PM and probably higher pressures . Now like i said i am not sure what pressure relief your suppose to have as i never looked today to say for sure . but someplace around or above 2150 to 2450 and free flow should be 13 GPM and a decent pump will do 10 to 12 GMP at just before relief . If your pump start falling like a rock as soon as you start to load it at Operating temp and that is between 165-190 the pump has done gone to lunch .
 
I think I read someplace on the 1086 the relief valve is 2250psi. He stopped by after work today and his gauge goes to 3000psi but he needed a couple more adapters to get it to the right size. I sent a hose-end home with him and the plan is tomorrow to come back by with gauge attached to the hydraulic hose end. We will insert it into a remote outlet and open the flow lever and then hit the remote lever. But looking at your description, I wonder if I would be better served if I attached it someplace else so that I can read pressure as it is trying to lift the load.?. If I attach just straight to gauge it is just going to go straight to the highest pressure it can attain or until relief valve kicks out right? Nothing will happen in this configuration until I hit the lever. Is the pressure supposed to be virtually constant to some degree when hydraulics are in use regardless of the weight or load or does the pressure increase along with the weight of the load. The flowmeter I am guessing will need to have one end of it running back into the reservoir, or do I actually put it inline with the hydraulic cylinder hose?

I realize he may already know these answers but I like educating myself and value advice from those such as you all here. Plus I love troubleshooting a problem. I learned a long time ago that wisdom can either be acquired from a lot of trial and error on your own or from listening to the words of those who have had their own "wisdom acquisition" moments. I am not too proud to opt for the latter whenever I can. When it's over I've learned either way.
 
Maybe you should try changing the filter again,You did say it was really dirty. Just saying
 
You know, I thought about that last night. Certainly wouldn't hurt. I also wondered since I found sort of a cruddy look on that screen and given that the tractor didn't get a whole lot of use last year I wonder if that same "crudiness" could have created issues inside with those flow valves in the MCV that make them not move as well. Especially if those springs were already getting weak from age. It was just a thought and I realize that may be reaching a bit too.
 
Ahhh, thanks for correcting me. It's possible that I used the wrong term or maybe I missed something in the diagram or (more likely) was just a wrong assumption. The valves that I were thinking of were the ones here, but if these are not involved with the remote circuit then I guess they couldn't be a possibility. If image doesn't come through just let me know and I'll try to supply it another way.


mvphoto24955.jpg
 
Maybe this is the diagram I should have been referring to for controlling flow to remotes??? Hopefully this afternoon's pressure and flow test provide a clearer picture.
mvphoto24956.jpg
 
Ok, got his gauge tonight and plugged into both remotes. Revved up to 1900 RPM and only got 1000psi at max. On the remote that is used more often I noticed when I shut tractor down its pressure backed down about 350 psi right off then slowly crept down to 500psi.

Does that shed any more light? I mean I am pretty sure that couldn't be right if relief pressure is 2300 to 2500 psi right?
 
Pressure checked in both remotes. Both got a 1000psi @ 1900rpm. The one that's used more often leaked down to 500psi after I shut the tractor off.
 
Tractor Vet,

He couldn't get the flowmeter so since I only have the reading from pressure gauge (1,000psi max) is that enough info to warrant any sort decision or not really? As I understand it the pump is "flow" and the springs/valve/regulator/etc more directly affects pressure due to providing resistance on the circuit. I do realize that is the most simplistic description of hydraulics and by no means addresses all of the concepts of a circuit like that.
 

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