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Discussion Forum
:

What makes a gas engine run rich

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Gene

03-02-2001 18:02:00




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I have been on this discussion board before and had received really good feedback on a problem that I have had with a gas IH 464 tractor and tried different solutions. Without going into all the details of what I have tried already, what can cause a gas engine to run too rich ? Or, putting it another way, what can cause the plugs to foul out within just a few days of operation for short periods of time. I just had the carb overhauled and flow tested and it checked out OK. What other things can cause an engine like that to run too rich ? I am just about at my wits end to find the problem. Several garage mechanics have tried and failed. What is bad is that if you take the tractor to someone to fix it, it is a while before you find out it is still doing the same old stuff. Help. Will try anything, including selling it to some poor soul. Thanks.

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stevie_alc

03-03-2001 20:21:53




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 Re: What makes a gas engine run rich in reply to Gene, 03-02-2001 18:02:00  
It does sound like carb.trouble and mabe reset the float. I have had some problems with plug fouling on my M and 300. And a ferguson 30. All have beens witched to 12 volt and hotter plugs and I installed an electronic ignition device on the M. I use the M almost daily and it runs real smooth. Will find out abput the others when I put up hay. I also put new 12 volt coils on. The gasoline today needs a hot spark to burn properly. Good luck and have fun.

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Haas

03-03-2001 20:09:16




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 Re: What makes a gas engine run rich in reply to Gene, 03-02-2001 18:02:00  
T-Bone and Paul Vance have you on the right track. If fuel is leaking at the carb air intake when the tractor is off, then the float level needs to be lowered, or you have a bad needle valve that is not shutting off tight. I used to have a 424. sounds like the same set up. It never did run very good at idle. You had to keep it reved up. I think it was because of too much fuel pressure and the float valve in the carb could not handle it.

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bill b

03-03-2001 16:58:51




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 Re: What makes a gas engine run rich in reply to Gene, 03-02-2001 18:02:00  
WAG ... wild a-- guess do you have gasoline in crankcase oil ? saw this once from a fuel pump problem . depending on the engine and fuel system congiferation could be other ways for gas to get in oil



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haas

03-03-2001 20:12:11




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 Re: Re: What makes a gas engine run rich in reply to bill b , 03-03-2001 16:58:51  
Difficult for an electric fuel pump to cause gasoline in the oil!



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billb

03-03-2001 20:29:00




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 Re: Re: Re: What makes a gas engine run rich in reply to haas, 03-03-2001 20:12:11  

what i saw this happen on was a dodge dump truck with a electric fuel pump . apparently flooded into manifold and was forced past the pistons.



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Redneck

03-02-2001 19:52:29




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 Re: What makes a gas engine run rich in reply to Gene, 03-02-2001 18:02:00  
Off the wall suggestion. Does the 464 use a ceramic resistor in the ignition circuit? A lot of the older tractors still used 6 volt ignition systems with 12 volt batteries and generators/alternators. Not using the resistor will cause the points and condensor to break down and the plugs to foul rather quickly. It may sound rather far fetched but I've solved more than one plug fouling tractor problem by installing the resistor.

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dick

03-02-2001 18:58:59




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 Re: What makes a gas engine run rich in reply to Gene, 03-02-2001 18:02:00  
If you would give a bit more information on what you've tried so far that hasn't worked, your chances of getting useful feedback would go up considerably.

What plugs are you using now, and which have you tried in the past? Have you removed a plug and looked at the spark to see if it's weak?

Have you tried to operate it without the air cleaner hose attached? Is the choke plate operating properly; especially, is it opening all the way? Does the air intake to the carb. look wet. If so, under what conditions? Does the tractor appear to operate differently with the air cleaner connected (if so, it may be partially plugged - not a bad idea to pull it off, fill it with kerosene or diesel to clean its screen, and drain it good before reinstalling it in any case - supposed to be done periodically, but probably hasn't been since the tractor was new).

How far off their respective seats are your adjustment screws on the carb. set? Have you REALLY tried to move these as close to closed as the tractor will tolerate and still run? These control the fuel/air ratio, and are the most "obvious" source of too rich a mixture.

Have you looked for leakage around the intake manifold? Unlikely, but a leak here could necessitate overly rich adjustment at the carb. and result in fouling at the plugs.

Have you checked the timing and the valve lash lately?

Might be most anything on this list, which hopefully is helpful - let us know how you make out.

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Gene

03-02-2001 21:52:45




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 Re: Re: What makes a gas engine run rich in reply to dick, 03-02-2001 18:58:59  
I certainly appreciate the feedback. Your list of possibilities sparked a few new ideas. Here is a list of what I have done so far.
-Had carb overhauled and flow tested twice.
-Checked the float level in carb with external hose while tractor was running. Found to be OK.
-Changed out the fuel pump and checked fuel pressure.
-Put in hotter plugs. Running D21's currently.
-Replaced the coil, condenser, points, distributor cap, plug wires, and coil wire.
-Set the timing and checked centrifugal advance.
-Ran carb without air intake hooked up and also checked air intake and filter replaced.
-Went from unleaded regular fuel to super premium unleaded fuel.
-Cleaned fuel line, filter and bowl.
-Disconnected and blew out fuel line with compressed air.
-Checked compression on engine. Found to average about 160 + or - about 8 lbs.
-Put in a lead additive to a tank of fuel and tried that.
May have forgotten some items. If it is of any help, the tractor runs richest at slow idle, and will almost choke you with fumes from unburned gas. When the tractor is run hard with a load, it seems to do better. Has plenty power and doesn't miss. But, when plugs start to foul out, the miss returns. Solution, pull the plugs, sandblast them or replace them, and problem goes away for a little while. But, I haven't really checked to see how "strong" the spark is, and the intake manifold could be a problem I guess. I have sprayed around the manifold with WD-40 to see if I could detect any change in engine sound, but nothing happened. Again, thanks for the list you provided me. Any thoughts are appreciated.

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ed

03-04-2001 21:39:42




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 Re: Re: Re: What makes a gas engine run rich in reply to Gene, 03-02-2001 21:52:45  
Gene, I have had a simular problen, tried everything. After reading the RE's: to your question, I checked the choke butterfly, and found it only partially opened. The stop on the choke would not let it open to the full open position. The plate behind the choke arm that the stop is on, has several positions that can be changed by removing one screw. I removed the screw and rotated the stop so the butterfly is in the full open position. Time will tell, but I think I have helped things considerbly. I have eliminated the black smoke completely, and the engine runs smoother.

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ed

03-04-2001 21:51:57




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: What makes a gas engine run rich in reply to ed, 03-04-2001 21:39:42  
just wanted to be on the two week follow up messages, in regards to Genes rich running engine problems.



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dick

03-03-2001 10:41:34




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 Re: Re: Re: What makes a gas engine run rich in reply to Gene, 03-02-2001 21:52:45  
Sounds as if you've done about everything but whatever it is that's required to fix the problem.

In your comments below, you indicate that your carb. doesn't seem to have a main fuel adjustment, just an anti-dieseling solenoid. Too much fuel flow has got to be your prime suspect since you're getting black smoke, strong gas smell, etc. There has to be some sort of restriction on the incoming fuel other than the solenoid valve. Most IH carburetors have a main screw - do you have an operator's manual for this tractor? If so, it should have a section about adjusting the carb. If not, buying a manual would surely seem like a low-cost option to all of the other things that you've done. Chances are about 99 percent plus that your problem is in your fuel supply control somewhere.

At this point, I'd suggest you again try operating for a while without the air cleaner hooked up to the carb. - too little air flow through it is about the only thing other than fuel supply control which would cause the severity of the problems which you describe. If the problems don't magically go away without the air cleaner hooked up, the problem is almost certainly in the fuel supply control.

Good luck, and let us know how you progress.

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T_Bone

03-03-2001 13:23:58




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: What makes a gas engine run rich in reply to dick, 03-03-2001 10:41:34  
Hi Gene, If it's a new tractor to you, check to see what size the main jet is. Someone may have chaged orfice size to larger one than needed.

The float needs to be cut down on fuel. Reclean the carb and readjust the float to a smaller than factory spec. When you reclean the air passages, use Berryman B-12, use a small copper wire to run into the passages. A strand from multi-strand copper wire works well. If any improvement then keep tearing down the carb until clean. I did mine three times and each time I swore it was clean the time before.

T_Bone

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Gene

03-03-2001 14:41:18




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What makes a gas engine run rich in reply to T_Bone, 03-03-2001 13:23:58  
t bone and dick:

Thanks for the help and ideas. I have a manual for that tractor (just operators manual), and it states how to adjust the idle adjusting screw. But, the fuel shut off solenoid "permits full fuel flow through the main jet when energized". The "full fuel flow is stopped when the solenoid is de-energized". And that is it as far as adjustments to the carb is concerned. Now, the main jet, that is part of the solenoid does have two different size orifices listed in the parts manual. And you are right in that it may be the wrong size orifice. I will order the one that is supposed to work for this carb on Monday and see if it is the same size. I bought this tractor when it was hardly used at all, and it ran fine for the first few years. It is possible that someone could have changed jets on the solenoid when I had the carb worked on years ago. I will change the float level to allow less fuel in the reservoir as you suggested. There is one peculiarity that I haven't mentioned. This tractor does have a fuel pump. (I changed it too!). When the tractor is shut down after using it, everything is fine. When I go back several hours later, there is a tiny bit of fuel seeping from the air intake side of the carb. This continues to seep when the tractor is not being used. When I start the tractor up and start using it, this fuel seep dries up after a few minutes of operation. Not sure what thatt indicates, but thought I would mention it. I thought that the housing might be cracked on the carb, but if it is, it is invisible to the naked eye. Anyway, if persistence pays, I should find it someday. Thanks for your help !!!!

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dick

03-04-2001 07:53:01




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What makes a gas engine run rich in reply to Gene, 03-03-2001 14:41:18  
A fuel leak into the air inlet when the tractor isn't running usually indicates the float level is set too high. Since the float isn't shutting off the fuel intake to the carb. properly, you tend to get too much gas into the engine.

This may be a good bit of your problem. Try setting the float so the level in the bowl is lower.

Good luck, and let us know how you progress. If you still have the strong gas smell, be careful what you're doing so you don't end up with a fire.

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Gene

03-04-2001 15:07:33




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What makes a gas engine run rich in reply to dick, 03-04-2001 07:53:01  
Thanks for the feedback again. Will try to lower float level and will order (reorder) the orifice for that main fuel jet. Will let you all know what the problem was when it is solved. Thanks again.



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Paul Vance

03-03-2001 19:19:24




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What makes a gas engine run rich in reply to Gene, 03-03-2001 14:41:18  
Gene, on monday, order the proper main jet. On sunday, check your fuel pressure!! If you have WAY! too much pressure gas will leak from the carb while the tractor is running(poorly). If you have just a little too much pressure, fuel will be pushed passed your needle valve and fill up your bowl, the extra gas will be sucked into your intake, causing a slight rich condition(tractor still runs decent). Did you check float level with tractor running? Even if you did, check pressure.
Also, what is your altitude? I live at 7000ft atmosphere psi is avg. 11.6 roughly 20% less o2 than at sea level. Any carboureted engine that is brought here from sea level will run exactly as you describe yours running until you decrease mainjet size by one quarter. This may not apply to you but I see it very often here. (Santa fe NM.) Let us know your results> Paul Vance

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George

03-02-2001 18:32:20




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 Re: What makes a gas engine run rich in reply to Gene, 03-02-2001 18:02:00  
The biggest problem with running tractors that were originally designed for heavy duty service on leaded gasoline is that most of them are now doing light duty service (short run times at low horsepower output) on unleaded gasoline. The originally specified spark plugs (Champion D15Y) are too cold and foul very easily, sometimes in 10 hours or less. I have been plagued with this problem on a 404 and a 656. The cure is simple. Substitute hotter spark plugs like Champion D21 or if you can get them D23. D21's cured my problem. Note that D15Y plugs will still work reasonably well if the tractor is on a heavy load like a mix-mill or snowblower.

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jo

03-02-2001 18:12:44




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 Re: What makes a gas engine run rich in reply to Gene, 03-02-2001 18:02:00  
It may have the wrong fuel mixture, bad fuel, wrong carb, weak spark, or you may need hotter plugs...and that's just for openers. Also, if your timing is off, the same could happen. Good luck. jo



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twopop

03-02-2001 18:30:07




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 Re: Re: What makes a gas engine run rich in reply to jo, 03-02-2001 18:12:44  
a plugged up or restricted air cleaner



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Gene

03-02-2001 18:41:29




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 Re: Re: Re: What makes a gas engine run rich in reply to twopop, 03-02-2001 18:30:07  
Thanks for your feedback ! I have been through most of the things that you all have mentioned. I switched to D21 plugs, checked the air cleaner and air intake, the carb is set up now by the people that flow tested it, and it still runs rich. I have replaced the coil, and most of the rest of the ignition system (except the distributor), and checked the timing and timing advance and it all seems to work. But, I am still having the same problem. Can a cracked manifold or bad intake manifold cause a problem like that ? Not sure what to try next - except make sure that I have insurance on it, just in case it "catches fire". Thanks

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dick

03-02-2001 19:07:10




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: What makes a gas engine run rich in reply to Gene, 03-02-2001 18:41:29  
Few more questions:

What does your exhaust look like?
Are you using oil?
How's the compression in the engine?

Repeated question:

How far off their seats are the adjustment screws on the carb.?

Like I indicated before, could possibly be a leak in the intake manifold somewhere but this is really not very likely.



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Gene

03-02-2001 22:01:56




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What makes a gas engine run rich in reply to dick, 03-02-2001 19:07:10  
To answer your questions, the exhaust is black and smells with unburned fuel, especially at slow idle. The tractor hardly uses any oil at all, and the compression was around 155-160 on all cylinders. As far as the adjustment screw off the seat on the carb, it has only one adjustment screw, the main fuel jet being on a shut off solenoid that prevents it from dieseling which is unadjustable. It was replaced very recently to see if it was a source of problem. I would have to check to see the setting of the adjustment screw on the carb at the present time. I have tried different settings, none seem to help or hurt the situation. Is there a way to tell if there is an intake manifold leak, or just remove it and check it ? Thanks a bunch !

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Charlie

03-02-2001 19:01:29




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: What makes a gas engine run rich in reply to Gene, 03-02-2001 18:41:29  
What type of fowling are you getting - if its oily then you have a ring problem or oil somehow getting in to the cylinders. Does it smoke when its running. Are all the plugs fowling or just certain ones. Seems like I saw somewhere that some of the IH carbs had a frit of some sort to help with regulating fuel - if so it could be missing. Probably some others that know more on that one. The extra info may help someone come up with some more ideas.

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Gene

03-02-2001 22:11:23




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What makes a gas engine run rich in reply to Charlie, 03-02-2001 19:01:29  
Thanks for your response. The plugs are all fouled about the same. They have a black deposit on them, smelling of gasoline, that completely coat the plug porceleun and gap area. No oil is visible that I can tell. The tractor does smoke when it is running and has strong gas odor, especially at low speed, like just idling. I have thought about getting a new carb for the tractor, or a rebuilt one, but have not been able to find a rebuilt one and haven't checked if a new one is available. The tractor is about a 1973 model with low hours on it. It ran fine without this problem a few years ago, but when this started (for whatever reason), it has been a constant problem. As I mentioned, it will run fine for a while, a couple of weeks or so, and then the fouling of plugs require that they be removed and cleaned or replaced. Thanks for your help and your ideas.

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Dave BN

03-03-2001 07:45:26




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What makes a gas engine run rich in reply to Gene, 03-02-2001 22:11:23  
I like the idea of trying a new or different carburetor. Can you borrow one from somebody just to try it? Sounds like your getting too much air from somwhere, like maybe a crack in the carburetor body where you can't see it. Other possibility is weak spark. Maybe it's time to try a new distributor. Again, maybe you could borrow one from a parts house or junk yard just to try it. I know it gets expensive experimenting. Lastly, and I know this sounds stupid, but what brand of fuel do you use? I have solved problems for myself and others by switching brands. Good luck. DAve BN.

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Gene

03-03-2001 09:56:15




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What makes a gas engine run rich in reply to Dave BN, 03-03-2001 07:45:26  
Thanks for your help. I am trying to find a carburetor at this time. A carburetor shop overhauled and flow tested the existing one just recently, but I guess that is no assurrance that it is OK. I did go to a different brand of Fuel, and higher octane. Switched to Texaco from Fina. The thing I have not pursued very hard is the spark side of things. I mean I changed coils, plugs, distributor cap, rotor, condenser, etc. but never really looked at the "quality of the spark". Again, thanks for your help. If I ever find out what caused this, will post. Like you said, it gets expensive swapping or buying parts, especially on non-common equipment. Thanks again.

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George

03-03-2001 13:06:22




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What makes a gas engine run rich in reply to Gene, 03-03-2001 09:56:15  
Gene: we seem to have established you are running rich, VERY rich,In my 806 operator manual (gas)their is suppose to be a adjustment needle in the center of the anti-run on valve.(fuel shut off) you are to lean it for light work. Well many have been replaced and they don't have the adj. screw just a shut off valve,(solonoid) guess too many people run them lean and burned a piston or two??. what I did was to lower my float a little more (1/8") and it helped some, you can put an high speed needle in it from an M-400-450, and lean it like you do on those tractors, Gut feeling is something is a little too rich in the carb.Some carb rebuild shops leave too many things to chance I hate to tell you to lean it up and you are masking the real problem . Try shutting the fuel off at the tank with it running and see if it clears up just as it gets starved for fuel that will just about prove it is rich at the carb. is the timing retarded? that will act rich also. You can turn the dist. while it is running and hear if it is right, than put a timing light on it and see where you are at. Sorry you have an ill iron horse, George.

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George

03-04-2001 07:38:14




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What makes a gas engine run rich in reply to George, 03-03-2001 13:06:22  
Gene: Try calling MOTECK he has carb experence, rebuilds them I am told,seems like a good sort of a guy maybe he has a high speed jet or an adjustment needle or the adjustable anti diesel valve. It can't hurt # (765)963-6628. George.



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Gene

03-03-2001 14:55:56




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What makes a gas engine run rich in reply to George, 03-03-2001 13:06:22  
George: Thanks for your input. I noticed in another manual I bought for that tractor that they mentioned an adjustment of the shut-off main jet, but this doesn't have one. I will try your idea on dropping the float level some to try to lean it a bit and see what happens when I "run it dry". I think I have done that before, but will do it again. The timing has been checked and that part seems to be OK, along with the centrigal advance functions OK. I am going to order another orifice for the main shut off solenoid. I noticed they had two listed in the parts manual, and I can't say which one I have. Will a diesel engine fit in this puppy ? Just kidding. Thanks again.

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