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Pettibone 88EL planetary axle backlash

E

ETD66SS

Member
Wondering if there are any members here having experience with planetary steering axles, and what is normal for backlash.

See here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K08r0IKFFP0&feature=youtu.be

I'm working on the driveline of my Pettibone EL88 addressing some sad looking U-Joints. I noticed about 45 degrees of backlash from the pinion out to the wheels on both front and rear axles, both steering axles. Only a few degrees of the backlash feels like ring to pinion clearance, the majority seems to be at the wheel in the planetary hubs and maybe whatever steering CV joint there is. I have yet to look inside the planetary hubs.

It looks like a heck of a lot of backlash to me, wondering if this is somewhat normal, or if it indicates some serious wear? I tried to check the oil in the planetary hubs, but none of them seem to have any oil on account of 40 year old seals leaking it all out...
 
You talking about the reduction hub or are you talking about the differential ring gear and pinion,all the axles that size I put together I would give the ring gear and pinion 10thou,I can't say I remember any setting on the planet gears as they fixed,I have never seen them worn unless they were ran without oil but ?.
AJ
 
I'm not sure really. The machine is parked, drive shafts off. I can move the differential pinion 45 degrees (+/- 22.5 deg) without the machine rolling. So from the differential input pinion all the way out to the planetary gearboxes that the wheels mount to, there is 45 degrees of total backlash. If I listen for the differential pinion to ring gear backlash, I get maybe 2-3 degrees of pinion movement.
 
As old as that machine is, the driveline
movement you're seeing sounds about right.

As AJ said, the planetaries in the hub
don't have backlash per-se, but there will
be some wear on the gear teeth, especially
if they have been run dry. Between that,
whatever clearance there is on the ring
and pinion, and any wear in the axel
splines, etc, around a quarter turn sounds
good as compared to some old machines I've
seen.

That said, some semi-fluid grease will
help keep some lube in the hubs when
regular oil won't stay due to seals
leaking. If it's not a machine you plan to
use alot, trying that may save you the
headache of tearing it down for new seals.
 
My question now is why are the drive shafts off,it is not something one would do just for the sake of doing it,was there a clunking noise or what?,did you find any metal on the drain plugs,is there any makers name on the axle,ie ZF Eaton etc
AJ
 
(quoted from post at 12:47:04 06/27/19) My question now is why are the drive shafts off,it is not something one would do just for the sake of doing it,was there a clunking noise or what?,did you find any metal on the drain plugs,is there any makers name on the axle,ie ZF Eaton etc
AJ
Click to expand...

I took the driveshafts off because about a year ago I replaced an upper seal on the transfer case then proceeded to fill it with 80W90 oil. There was not much oil in it when I drained it. When I went to fill it back up, everything looked fine. I noticed a couple months later all the 80W90 seeped out of the lower seals, hence the reason I am taking off the driveshafts, to replace the lower transfer case seals. While taking off said driveshafts I was alarmed at the backlash I was seeing through the axles, so want to investigate.

As you can see from these pictures, the machine is in very rough shape: https://imgur.com/a/zgEKA

Typically when I "investigate" something on this machine I wind up finding stuff like this: https://www.youtube.com/edit?ar=3&o=U&video_id=-yeiyIDZOZ8

Just wanted peoples' opinions on the axles is all, as it looked concerning to me, as in why bother spending money on driveshaft U-Joints is the axles are toast etc...
 

I should add I have never really run this machine. Got it off CL for $3000 because it looked like a fun toy/project. I only drove it a little bit, don't recall any axle clunking. Just been tinkering with it as I have time, wanted to get it operating this summer.

I did have two of the planetary axle end caps off, no oil came out, think the oil is supposed to be half way up that plate... They were either run with low oil, or all the years the machine sat it seeped out. I'm not sure this machine has been used much if at all the last ~20 years.
 
As Wayne said you will have play in the drive line of a machine that age,I would repair the oil leaks and not worry about the play,do not over fill the axles as the hub reduction with all those gears acts like a pump,it may last you long enough.
AJ
 
(quoted from post at 17:09:26 06/27/19) As Wayne said you will have play in the drive line of a machine that age,I would repair the oil leaks and not worry about the play,do not over fill the axles as the hub reduction with all those gears acts like a pump,it may last you long enough.
AJ
Click to expand...

I do plan to take off one of the steering housings due to ovaled out steering pin bosses that I'd like to line bore and sleeve. This will require disassembly of one of the planetary gear boxes all the way down to the CV/U-joint. So I will be able to get a good look at least one of the units to see how bad it looks.

https://imgur.com/W0B4gcQ

At some point I do want to get all the brakes working, and I'll want to inspect all the shoes and wheel cylinders etc, that job will require each planetary to be disassembled. So at some point I will get a look at them.
 
Are those the wallowed out holes in the picture,I would reamer them out in situ,if there is no other reason I would not remove the swivel for that,it's leave well enough alone if possible,the hub seal can be replaced by just removing the hub,what I see in the picture of that end of the axle looks good.
AJ
 
(quoted from post at 02:57:50 06/29/19) Are those the wallowed out holes in the picture,I would reamer them out in situ,if there is no other reason I would not remove the swivel for that,it's leave well enough alone if possible,the hub seal can be replaced by just removing the hub,what I see in the picture of that end of the axle looks good.
AJ
Click to expand...

The steering cylinder pin worked its way out about halfway, and it looks like someone used the machine like that for many hours/years, ovaling out the top hole. I don't think I can fix it on the machine, plan to work on it today, we'll see...
 
This is where I stopped today: https://imgur.com/PaImZTc

The bolts on the top king pin felt like they were twisting as opposed to loosening, so put some Kroil on them.

I tried to see where all the backlash was from, but working alone I could not watch the planetary gears while I was moving the pinion yoke on the differential.

What I can say is, if I grab hold of the differential pinion yoke with one hand, and the sun pinion on the end of the axle with the other, I am in no way seeing 45 degrees of movement, maybe 3-5 degrees at most. So the differential ring & pinion, and the steering u-joint seem to be fine, for this side anyways.

I looked at the planetary gears, and I see no excessive wear. There was hardly any oil in the planetary gear boxes, but there was no metal shavings, no broken teeth, the spur gear engagement looked good to me. https://imgur.com/DddaGrv

On the bright side, the brakes looked brand new: https://imgur.com/zzpPuIt

I do see that the planetary hub did suffer some casting damage, like at one time there was a problem with the planetary gear train and something got chewed up.
 
Me admiring how decent the axle looked it did not dawn on me the reason was that there was no oil in the hubs,no wonder it did not show a leak,all the gears look ok hope the planet gear spindles are not pitted,the brake shoe looks to be an odd shape looks like only 75% of the lining was making contact with the hub ?,it's going to keep you busy for a while.
AJ
 
(quoted from post at 13:09:43 06/30/19) Me admiring how decent the axle looked it did not dawn on me the reason was that there was no oil in the hubs,no wonder it did not show a leak,all the gears look ok hope the planet gear spindles are not pitted,the brake shoe looks to be an odd shape looks like only 75% of the lining was making contact with the hub ?,it's going to keep you busy for a while.
AJ
Click to expand...

Yeah, I noticed the shoes as well, the bottom pins that hold the shoes are eccentric, and I think someone had them adjusted wrong, so the shoes have uneven wear.

Unfortunately the wheel cylinder didn't look as good on the inside as the outside: https://imgur.com/kBRKY3i

The original brake drum from 1971 sure cleaned up nice though: https://imgur.com/ktXYUmX

I should be able to hone out the wheel cylinder: https://imgur.com/r35mrr2

After what I discovered so far, I'm definitely going to have to tear into all the planetary units to inspect, as well as to fix the brakes.
 
So far all the parts are looking pretty good:

https://imgur.com/HcnEyJv
https://imgur.com/fGYznDg
https://imgur.com/XBQR8WI

However, by damage I see in both the socket ball (https://imgur.com/iB4aK56) and wheel hub (https://imgur.com/UelgJq7), at some point something let loose. So wondering if these parts look good because they are newer replacement parts in comparison to the other wheels. The steering u-joint is rock solid, no play at all.

One more step to get the steering housing off (https://imgur.com/AVMGQwa) and talk to a machine shop about line boring & sleeving the steering pin bosses.

In the mean time trying to figure out all the seals I need, I may as well replace all the seals on both axles. All in all, still not sure where all the backlash is coming from...
 
Well, as usual, the more you tear into a machine, the more problems you find.

Obvious axle seal damage: https://imgur.com/ZiWR4sI

Allowed moisture to get into axle tube and rust the inside and mix with the oil: https://imgur.com/Orhfofd

The axle shaft has a twist in the spline where it engages the steering u-joint yoke, and the sealing surface is pitted from rust: https://imgur.com/WKAAwOI

It definitely looks like at some point the planetary blew up and locked up the wheel causing the axle spline twist and at the same time damaging the seal. Whoever repaired the machine did not take it apart all the way down to the ball socket, if they had, they probably would have at least replaced the bad seal...
 
I agree with you there has been things adrift in there,pity,there is a couple on Machinery Trader for dismantling or sell whole just Google Pettibone 88EL and it will bring them up,they are some size machine what would you be using that for,last time I seen one of those was on a housing development putting up the roof timber and very efficient it was,its reach but then along came the telehandler much more compact and the Pettibone fell to the wayside.
AJ
 
(quoted from post at 02:04:12 07/05/19) I agree with you there has been things adrift in there,pity,there is a couple on Machinery Trader for dismantling or sell whole just Google Pettibone 88EL and it will bring them up,they are some size machine what would you be using that for,last time I seen one of those was on a housing development putting up the roof timber and very efficient it was,its reach but then along came the telehandler much more compact and the Pettibone fell to the wayside.
AJ
Click to expand...

This is as much of a hobby machine as anything. I do own 60 acres and would have many uses for it. I picked it up on CL because it was close and cheap.

I have found almost an identical machine on machinery trader, however it is 750 miles away and the shipping cost pretty much kills that idea.

From the parts manual I got with tha machine, I can see hand written notes concerning the repair of this axle. It has been run for quite some time with this twisted spline, so I think I can just reuse the axle for now and continue to keep an eye out for parts machines. It's not a machine I need to make money with, it just a toy that would be nice to get running.
 
So I should be re-assembling this axle soon, and looking for opinions of spindle bearing nut installation. The service manual calls for the use of a special tool (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Gh0Rlvxrhwfkye7xBK6IHC8x_QUv6PYC/view?usp=sharing) which I do not have.

The bearing nut is supposed to be torqued to 600-700 ft-lbs. I removed the bearing nut via a steel drift pin that was softer than the bearing nut material. Hard to tell, but it didn't seem like it had that much torque applied.

If any mechanic out there has experience with this sort of assembly, what would you do? Make a tool so the nut can be torqued, or just try to guesstimate the torque via a hammer and drift pin upon re-assembly? Based on the radius of the bearing nut, I calculate the striking force needed on the drift pin to reach 700 ft-lbs torque is 3500 lbs... Don't think I can achieve that with a 6lb hammer. This tells me that nut did not have 700 ft-lbs on it. There was no play in the spindle bearings before disassembly.
 
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