moto-loaders

ohioron

Member
Evidently the engine is out of time. Gas engine, don't know the make, would appreciate knowing it as well as model of loader or where numbers would be located. It started up after sitting a year but quite like the switch was turned off which it wasn't. Now have gas, spark to the plugs but no fire. Figure the only thing left is timing. no timing marks in front on pulley but looks like they might be on fly wheel since there is a hole with arrow on the bell housing. wondering what would be #1 cylinder, the one near the radiator? was going to use compression and a timing light to try and see timing if I can determine #1? sorry for long question, feel free to ignore it. Any info appreciated.
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Looks like a Continental, but a little different than the 6 cyl. one I remember. Maybe it's a newer version?

Number 1 is next to the fan.

I have a little 4 cyl. Continental with the same distributor set up, coming up through the head. I pulled it once, to do a tune up, and was alarmed to find I couldn't turn the dist. by hand. The long shaft can't get lube all the way from up through the engine, so it needs to be done from above. I can't remember just what I did, but I lubed and freed up the shaft to my satisfaction. It turned so hard I was surprised something wasn't worn out or broken!
 
Bob, good information. This is a 6 cyl and wondering if I sheared a tooth someplace based on how stuck you said yours was. It's still turning though when cranked. Will use your info on what is #1 to try and check time. thanks, ron
 
I have worked on a lot of the flat head engines like that. I am doubting it has lost timing. It would at least burp or try to fire back thru the intake or make some strange noises. Take that line off the intake and spray a little gas in and see what happens, they were bad for the valves to stick open, so pull a spark plug and see if you have compression. Would not pull the distributor yet if the rotor is turning.
 
good advise. don't want to pull it unless I have to. I sprayed either into the carb, no fire, I took off 3 plugs and put a timble of gas in each one, nothing happened. will check compression as suggested and report back. I don't really understand spraying gas into the intake. You don't mean the manifold, right? thanks again for the ideas. ron
 
Back in college I drove a Checker Cab with a Continental six. Hung a valve open several times. The mechanic would pull the spark plug and reach in with a tool and free the valve. Two minutes tops.
 
interesting. do you think this is a Continental? going to check compression next and if find a bad one will try your trick. thanks
 
A continental is the only engine I have ever seen with the distributor in the middle of the head. What exact model it is I have no idea, but that is a starting place. I will admit I have not seen a whole lot of engines.
 
Shinnery, thanks for your guess on the make of the engine. will use that till I get a better oine. ron
 
I always do compression tests with all spark plugs removed to get the lightest load on the starter. Fastest engine spinning. Make sure the throttle is wide open in carburator and no other intake airflow restrictions. If pressures read low add a tablespoon or so of oil in each cylinder and retest, if this helps lots it is rings not valves where the problem is.
 
did it but guess I need a new compression gauge. It's not as old as me, 86, but guess it isn't working right. when cranking the engine it moves between 0 and 120 to 130 on all cylinders but doesn't hold
pressure. that's the gauge problem isn't it? thanks for the help.
 
Chrysler made a flat 6 with the distributor in the exact same place and looking at the exhaust manifold I am thinking that is what he has. Going to be interesting to see how this plays out but still doubt it is a timing issue.
 
You may just need to replace a Schrade valve in your compression tester. Like a valve in your car tires. It has been 53-54 years since I was around those Checker Cabs with Continental engines. I do remember them having downdraft carburators, instead of updraft. Every MOPAR engine I have been around had the distributor on the side. Get the car around some water and they would drown out easily. Mainly water around the spark plugs.
 
great will check it out. thanks, just about to go buy a new one. will look into your suggestion first. ron
 
Shinnery, I replaced that valve with a different one but maybe have to go buy a new one since the pressures still fluctuates between 0 to 130 to 0 on the gauge. You seem pretty knowledge on this subject so
would you know if there is a one way valve in the line between the gauge and the plug adapter. It seems the pressure just flows back and forth between the cylinder and the gauge and not leaking out of the s
valve. Will go get a new s. valve anyway but there does seem, to the eye, that there is something in the fitting for the quick connect on the hose for the gauge that might be sticking or something? Thanks
for you help. ron
 
Finally got the compression gauge to work. flooded the hose on it with wd-40 and p blaster and and air hose. Guess there is a one way valve in the hose or fittings that wasn't working.

These re the numbers I got. #6 150, #5 130, #4 155, #3 90, #2 150, #1 110 without added oil. So guess it isn't a stuck valve, right? Is it ok to use a timing light with the starter, since
it won't run, to try and see time? I never checked time on flywheel thru a hole in the bell housing so any thoughts appreciated.
 
You said it started right up after setting a year then quit. I don't think it would have started right up if the timing was off. Have you turned the distributor since then? Line the timing mark up in the hole and see where the rotor is pointing. It should point at #1 and the points should be ready or just opening.

You said you have gas. Was that at the carb, or were the plugs wet? Did you try spraying some gas, or a little starting fluid, into the carb while cranking with the throttle open? I would lean more to a problem in the carb or the governor just above it.
 
Jim, Thanks for the suggestions on how to test timing. I needed that. To see if it was a gas problem I pulled 3 plugs and put in a thimble or so of gas in each one. Before doing that had sprayed starting fluid in the carb but no fire. I wondered what that was just above the carb. Thanks for identifying it as a gov. Was going to drop the carb and see what it looks up there. Sometimes mice fill things around here if setting over the winter. I thought adding gas in the plug holes and still no fire must indicate that might not be the problem. What should I look for in the gov.? Could it freeze up and block the intake? Next will take your advise to check time, thanks don't know why these things that look like a br with < > around it. they keep showing up in what I write? sorry about that if they come thru.
 
Dieseltech, thanks for the word. wondered how it worked as a governor. Your saying it will be wide open if not working, good. so it wouldn't be rusted stuck closed most likely.
 
Yes, I agree a velocity governor should be open, but I have seen one that failed and was closed. They only limit maximum engine speed by restricting air flow. Just thinking there is a problem that hasn't been found and need to look at every possibility. For reference you should be able to ID the governor by the info on the cover plate on the side of it. Hoof, Pierce, and King-Seeley are the common ones.

Was the air tube off the carb for the winter? Mice shouldn't have been able to get there if the intake system was intact from filter to carb. What does the small hose at the center of the intake manifold go to? It could be a vacuum leak if what is connected failed. Just another possibility.
 
The velocity governor will limit the high speed only if working correctly, even with the carb throttle is wide open. For idle the carb throttle is manually closed as needed. I parted out a feed grinder years ago that had the same setup.
 
Jim.ME, thanks for info on governor. To check if open I guess I'd have to drop the carb right? I took the air tube off to spray starting fluid into the carb. so it wasn't off all winter for mice to get in.
This spring we had a White 2-105 diesel farm tractor that wouldn't start and found the mice had filled the air filter so no air could get in. I thought if something like that was happening I'd bypass it by
pulling the air hose off the carb. When it first started I ran the RPM'S up pretty well before it quit. Maybe that moved the governor closed and having set all winter it didn't open again. Could that be?
I'll check the small hose to see where it goes and let you know. ron
 
Your loader looks to be a little smaller than mine.On that panel on the rear that says Lorraine my panel is about a foot tall,and contains two of those grille slots.That's where I have to put my batteries in.Mine has a J-130 Cummins,and my friend has three the same.We do know of one with a Detroit in it too.I think you should pump the brakes a little on digging too deep.Go back to the simple things.you say you have spark.How strong of a spark? You should get a big blue snap,not a little one,or an orange-yellow one.You need one that you think might knock you over if you grabbed it.Crank it over and make sure it is consistant.Lay all the plugs out on the head with the wires hooked up and have somebody crank it while you watch.Every plug should snap at it's time consistantly.After you've confirmed everything sparks as it should you can move on to the next thing.
 
Keith, Good idea on the plug test, will try it. Wish mine was a diesel. My battery sits under the seat. Any idea where the model number might be on it? thanks, ron
 
Keith, by any chance do any of you guys have a book on these loaders? I'd be willing to pay the cost of copying and mailing and a little profit for it. Guess it would be a lot of trouble so I'd understand if you can't bother with it. thanks, ron

[email protected] if needed
 
Look on the wall next to your left knee.It will say,The Thew Shovel Company,Lorrain Ohio.Model number will be stamped there too.I have the books for mine,but there really is no manual for the whole machine.There is a Cummins book,an Alison book,Rockwell book for the axles and planetarys,and one for the transfer case.The only book pertaining to the whole loader is the one that tells you how to assemble the bucket,wheels,and tires after you unload it off the rail car.It is a component machine,so the only thing really made by Lorrain are the frame and loader parts.
 
Jim.ME. that small hose you asked about seems to go to a unit on the right side of the engine down low.. That unit it goes to also has hoses going to and from engine looks like for cooling it and then this one hose from the manifold. That doesn't make sense to me so maybe I have it wrong, very difficult to follow it. Maybe some else knows better? Tried to figure out how to add a picture of it but guess you can't without starting another post?
 
I think you'll find that hose from the manifold goes to a vacuum reserve tank,and from there to the brake booster.The diesels use a Convair belt drive vacuum pump,because you can't get the vacuum out of a diesel engine.
 
I expected you to say it goes to a vacuum tank or a vacuum brake booster, both of which I have seen develop vacuum leaks that don't help starting or running. It won't hurt to unhook it and plug the manifold fitting temporarily if you still don't get the engine to start. That might improve vacuum to pull the gas/air mixture up to the cylinders.
 
OK, will consider that. If you look at the picture of the right side of the engine (right side of the loader) you see a cast iron thing about a foot long kind of like a pineapple down almost to the frame.
You must have one on yours. Any idea what it is or what it is for? In my picture it is kind of tan color. Next step try and find timing marks on flywheel and compare with distributor setting for time.
 
Keith, interesting, thanks. That tank that I think is where the hose ends up doesn't make sense to me since it has water going to and from it?
seems like it is for cooling it?
 
Jim, I haven't turned the dist yet. actually it looks like it is not made to turn. Is it possible I'd have to pull it out and turn it and then put it back in the right position? When I put the mark on
the fly wheel (red finger nail polish it looks like from a previous rebuild maybe) on the point on the bell housing the dist. rotor is about 30 to 40 degrees past the position for #1 plug wire. Timing must
really be off or I am doing something wrong. Think I'll try a timing light. Also will try and see if I can feel TDC with a rod in the plug hole. om #1 before I goo screwing up the timing by moving stuff.
 
Have you tried laying all the plugs out and watching while someone cranks it over to check the spark at all the plugs, as Keith suggested? You should see the spark on each about the same time the compression blows out, if it gets gas they could pop off, don't be surprised.

Make sure you have TDC on #1 compression stroke when you check the rotor position. Have you cranked the engine with the distributor cap of and watched the rotation? Have you taken hold of the rotor button and tried to turn the distributor shaft? If it turns, more than a few degrees either way, it might have an issue with the distributor drive system. Did you turn the engine by hand to line the mark up and did you turn it in the proper rotation to get there? Does the mark say TDC or such to indicate top dead center or does it say something like FIRE or ADV? I ask as some engines had both a TDC mark and a FIRE/ADV mark. On those the FIRE/ADV mark is what a timing light will see at a given rpm on those as it takes into account the distributor's advance system, so it is before the TDC mark is visible.

You should not have to pull the distributor to turn it. When I blow your last photo up, it looks like there is a capscrew on the left side holding a distributor clamp to the riser collar . It looks like something on the right side right up under the distributor body. It may be a screw and nut across the split of the clamp. You would loosen that horizontal screw to release the clamping pressure and allow the distributor to turn for adjustments.

I ask some of these questions just to double check when I think of things I slipped on or saw done in the past, not intending to imply you don't know what you are doing.
 
Jim.me, appreciate all your information and suggestions, You are about right on not knowing what I am doing. Still learning and can use all you say. Will be checking your suggestion about lining up the plugs on head to be sure I have fire before I get into the changing time. Am turning engine by hand but unfortunately haven't been able to find any writing on the flywheel like TDC , fire or advance. Will look more after the holiday. Turned engine over with cap off to watch rotation. When turning rotor by hand it does only move a few degrees each way. Lining the mark up is a guessing game since I haven't found any on the flywheel just lines. Guessing where TDC is so far. Hoping it is the longer red line someone put on it years ago. Unfortunately there are 2 red dots and a short red line on each side of the long red one so can't be sure so far. I was hoping a timing light might identify the right line for TDC? Will keep trying. Keep suggestions coming and any thing you think of. thanks, ron
 
Ron,

Stumpf Welding supplies, among others, has an online copy of the manual (91 pages) for Continental "L" Head engines, you can download. While it is not 100% certain you have a Continental, nor what model it is, the info in theory will fit many engines and should help you. It has info on timing, carbs, governors, etc..

I am sure you have done this, but check the sides of the block over closely for a metal tag, it maybe behind something or covered with build up.

Don't start trying to change timing by turning the distributor until you have done all the checks suggested. You said it started then quit. If the timing was off it does not seem it would have started to begin with. Let us know what you see for fire at the plugs when laid out as per Keith's suggestion.
 
Jim, good information on the engine. Will try and find it and recheck over the engine for ID. My thought on it starting and quitting and not starting again was maybe something jumped in the timing like a
chain or a broken tooth. Hopefully that hasn't happened. Wondering why the rotor in the dist. is about 30 degrees off of #1 plug wire spot when marks on flywheel are put on the pointer on bell housing.
can't tell for sure if the mark I'm on is TDC since there are no letters I've found yet. Just a red mark of three from some previous rebuild I guess. Thanks for your continued help, thinking I better take a break on this forum and give others a chance on their problems instead of using up all the space? ron
 
Locate the manual (be sure you get the 91 pages, some sites have copies missing some of the sections) and save it to your computer. Print it if you want. Go through it. It has a trouble shooting section. As far as breaking a chain that engine should be all gears. Breaking a tooth and skipping can happen, but is not too common. When you find the problem it will likely be something simple. Go step by step, don't start throwing parts at it.
 
Keith, tried your suggestion for laying all plugs on head and checking for spark. have spark on all 6 even with a part painted and part rusty head. I'd say the spark on number one isn't at the time of compression but will get another to also check that. Don't know how mechanics would mark the flywheel. would think the long red mark would be the right one, the two red dots on each side of it and a short red one further along don't know what they are marking if anything. When putting the flywheel on the long red mark the rotor is about 30 degrees past where # 1 plug wire is in dist? thanks, ron
 
Jim.me, thanks for the lead om the Cont. engines. Sure is a lot of good info in it even if I'm not sure what or which it is. Couldn't find it on Stumpf's site but it did come up in google using their name
and the engine type. ron
 
Jim.me, looking at this manual you suggested it talks about using a timing light in the hole in the bell housing at a idle RPM of 400. Since the engine won't run do you think we could get near the right timing using a timing light and the starter motor?
 
Jim, I'm down to thinking the spark is there but may be weak. If you are still here what do I do to get a better spark? Is it the coil or capacitor that I would replace? Thanks
 
Hi Ron,
If you found the manual I was looking at and suggested; on page 48 (after they tell about using a timing light) there is a section that tells you how to get initial timing without a timing light. They call it the "emergency method". Don't get concerned with, or look at those flywheel marks, until you know you have the engine at TDC by the manual and the tips we have given you in prior posts. Then see where the rotor is pointing. After that you can look at the flywheel and may find the TDC mark, rather than the ones you have been talking about.

Not seeing/knowing the condition of your ignition parts it is hard to say if they need to be replaced or not. If the points are burnt and/or pitted they should be replaced. Replacing the condenser at the same time is common practice. Don't throw the old one away as there is a chance the new condenser will not work. It seems the quality of ignition parts is slipping. I would recommend getting the best quality Standard Motor Products (they have a "price" selection on many items) or Echlin (NAPA) components. You may need to take the old ones with you to visually match them up. Realizing looks can be deceiving; in your photos the coil and cap look like they are not too old. The wires, distributor cap and rotor button may be worn or corroded. You can scrape and clean the contacts of the rotor and cap. If the ends of the wires are corroded change them. How do the plugs look and what are they gapped at? What info is on the tag of the distributor as far as manufacturer and numbers.

Why the jumper wire to the coil? Using a voltmeter, do you have 12 volts to the coil without that jumper? Using a voltmeter,do you have 12 volts to the coil when the starter is cranking the engine? Is the battery hooked up positive or negative ground? Which post of the coil is the wire to the distributor hooked to? What does the writing on the coil say?

I don't remember seeing if this is a machine you have had for a while or just acquired. Looking back at a few other posts I am thinking you just got it. In looking at one of the photos in this post it looks like there might be a tag under the air cleaner, or it might be something else.
 
Jim.me, thanks for all your suggestions and questions. Found that manual and used those pages. I put the rotor at the number 1 plug wire nothing showed on the fly wheel, moving the rotor about 30 degrees beyond #1 spot in the dist. puts the fly mark for TDC (red mark from previous mechanic's work I guess) in the right spot with the mark on the bell housing. I have had and used this a couple hours a year for about 7 years. When I first got it had a machine shop rebuild it that was probably 5 to 6 years ago. This problem just showed after not running it for about the last year. Plug wires and cap, seem good and were replaced then, replaced the plug now. Winter before last the mice eat the wires some place so am hot wiring direct from the battery terminal on the solenoid to bat. terminal on coil. It worked that way ok. When we first got this it had a damaged split battery in it with the + hitched to ground so figured it had a plus ground and it has worked that way for years since. I'll be honest I don't understand advantages of plus ground if there are any? I'll try and read tags on air cleaner and dist. Don't remember why but put in a new coil a few years ago. Plugs are gaped to 25 1000's. Thanks for the help, will get back after reading tags. excuse the long post. ron
 
Hi Ron,

I may have misunderstood what you wrote and I apologize if that is the case. Did you find top dead center by bumping the engine over while holding your finger over the #1 plug hole, [u:a87d886cf4]not by[/u:a87d886cf4] looking at the rotor or marks on the flywheel? Finding TDC that way, not by the rotor position or flywheel marks will confirm which one is off. For safety, pull the coil wire out of the distributor and ground it to the block or disconnect power to the coil so you don't get a shock if you hit a plug wire or if the engine decides to start on 5 cylinders (it has happened to people). Bump the engine over with the starter until you feel compression pushing your finger off the spark plug hole as it starts to build. Once you feel it building compression stop, slip a wire down through the plug hole and touch the top of the piston. Holding the wire lightly so it slips through you fingers rotate the engine by hand, the same direction the starter turned it, until the wire stops coming up, that will be TDC for#1 cylinder to set the distributor to. [u:a87d886cf4]Then[/u:a87d886cf4] look to see where the rotor is and where the flywheel marks are. (It is easier if all the plugs are out while you are turning it by hand.) If the marks are lined up and the rotor isn't; then some thing has happened with the distributor.
 
Jim, I turned it over with starter with all plugs out and thumb on plug hole # 1. Noticed the spark appeared when compression started. Looked about the same time. Will do as you suggested, stop when compression starts and fish a wire in if possible. Looking at the L head diagram, if this is a continental, looked like I couldn't get a wire to the piston with the L head but will try and see when piston reaches top and check fly wheel for marks. thanks, ron
 
The wire may not go in but it is worth a try. If it is possible to fully confirm TDC, it is a certain starting point before going deeper. If you can't get the wire in but can see both valves, look at the valves in #6 cylinder. When they are "on the rock" (the point when the exhaust valve is just closing and the intake valve is just starting to open) #1 cylinder should be at TDC.
 
I have been involved in mechanical work for years. Over the years I have found many things are not as they seem, and there are many different ways to reach the same end. Hence all the different responses to questions on forums. We gain from each others experiences.

You may want to be looking for the tag on the carburetor and getting the numbers from it, so you can get a basic kit for it. I expect it could use a good cleaning given your description of the use it has had in the past few years and the gasoline we have. I recently had to clean the carb on one of my tractors which had set for a year due to circumstances. It had gas to the carb, would start, run a few seconds, and quit, like the was key shut off, It would not restart. I tried the next day and the same thing occurred, so I ordered a carb kit. Drained the tank, put in some new gas, and tried it several times, with the same results, while waiting for the carb kit to arrive. Got the kit and cleaned the carb. It started and stayed running. My point is keep an open mind, you may have more than ignition problems.
 
Someone asked me what's on the labels on various things so here's what I can read.
Air cleaner - Vortox Air Cleaner, Model 680, Series 157, Vortox Co, Muskegon, Mi
Dist. - Galco-Lit, 0078102-1A36119 900, Toledo, OH
Gov - Hoof Governor, BPM Range (blank), Model S40m -16, Hoof Products co, Chicago, Ill
Carb - Zenith Model (blank)
 
Jim, I thought because it didn't fire when spraying ether in carb and then adding gas in the plug holes with no fire that it was timing or plugs (bought new ones). I just dropped the gov and carb to make sure the butterfly valves weren't closed on those two things and sprayed a lot of ether direct into the intake manifold and it fired right up. I wonder if a weak spark would run on ether but wouldn't run on gas? Never happened on others so doubt it. Guess timing is OK and will look into carb like you did on your tractor? When remounting gov and carb and spraying ether into the carb no fire. As you said earlier probably a simple thing, is right.
 
Jim.me, are you in Maine? Just guessing from the ME. in your name. "The Way Life Should Be" they say. I had a place in York before leaving for Ohio. My sister has a old farm in Union. Great state.
President Bush who just died had money to live anyplace and I see he picked Maine even from TX.
 
Yes, I'm in Maine, some north of Auburn.

Try unhooking that hose that taps into the side of the intake manifold and plugging the hole, in the fitting the hose is hooked to. Then try the ether through the carb again. If the hose as a hole in it somewhere or whatever is on the other end of that hose has lost a seal it may be causing a loss of vacuum. When you had the carb and governor off and sprayed it you were closer to the cylinders and may have gotten the spray past the hose. With the carb and governor in place the intake is restricted more and it might be pulling air through the hose rather than through the carb. Eliminate that possibility for now.

Is there a tag on the block behind or below the air cleaner mounting brackets? If there is it would be you engine ID tag.

You may want to give the carb a cleaning and put in a basic kit. Setting a lot and the gas we have now don't go well together. I have been dosing the gas tanks here with the marine grade Stabil regularly and when they are going to be setting. Also shutting the gas off and running the carbs dry when parking them.
 
I been using Stabil (not marine grade) and sea foam. Is marine grade better? Will plug line outlet and look behind filter for tags and double check carb if plugging doesn't work.
 
Praise God From Whom Blessings Flow and the advise from Yesterdaystractors.com and you will solve all your tractor problems. Took most of all the advise from all all helpers and have a temp. today of 64 degrees. Can't give you credit for that. Turned the gas on , filled the carb twice with ether spray and it started right up and runs like new. Diesn't mean it will do the same when cold but can wait till summer now, Thanks to all, I have a lot of info now in my file for future problems and will now leave space here for others. Thanks again to all for help. Have a great holiday. ron over and out.
 

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