Case 580b(issue priming injector inlet?)

Hi all, so I've got everything back together and verified oil movement, then oil pressure with a temporary gauge (60 PSI just cranking it for 15 to 20 seconds)
Then I verified there's oil getting to the top end(visually)
But I'm having issues bleeding the diesel fuel lines, I have diesel going to the injection pump but cannot get diesel to come out of number one inlet injection line with it completely disconnected and the other three still connected? I filled the tank up and I believe it's higher than the return line from the injectors because if I crack those open on each injector I have diesel there and at the injection pump fitting.
I'm wondering if I have the diesel so high that I'm getting it to come out of the return line to the injectors if it would stop the pump from priming it going to the inlet portion of the injector? (In other words is it possible when trying to prime this system that having it too high (at or above the return line to the injectors) that it causes issues with priming? Thanks Matt
 
Question, when did the engine last run with THAT injection pump? You have plenty of fuel in the tank for bleeding as is, no such thing as too much fuel in the tank to stop the bleeding process. Pump MAY have some stuck internal parts from setting unused awhile.
 
What's funny is that the whole time I was doing the engine rebuild is that there was diesel coming out of the injector inlet fittings where I cannot get any to come out now that I have it cranking over so it doesn't make any sense to me (diesel was dripping out of the fittings that are the inlet to the injectors on their own the whole time I was doing the engine rebuild)?

It was a running diesel engine that I tore down to do an engine overhaul on because of a knock sound which turned out to be the wrist pin bushing on one of the Pistons was completely gone, and I removed the head and injectors about April of 2022 so not that long ago...
 
According to the manual the run position
is with the lever pushed in which is how I
was trying, but towards the end of me
trying to get diesel flow I thought I
pretty much bought this thing and ran it
up to one of my outbuildings and started
tearing it down so is it possible that
it's backwards and the fuel cable shut off
for the injection pump is backwards and I
need to have it pulled out to run and not
pushed in? I don't recall 100% because I
literally bought the machine and drove it
up to my outbuilding and shut it down and
started tearing it down to rebuild so I
only operated at once and it could be
backwards but I'm doubtful... I also think
that the whole time I was rebuilding it
that the lever was pushed in in the start
position which could have explained the
diesel fuel coming out of the inlet
fittings while I was rebuilding it so that
kind of shoots that idea down as to it
being backwards as to what it's supposed
to be...
 

Did you have the cable unhooked during the rebuild? Be sure it is moving full stroke at the lever. I have seen cables hooked up pushed in when the lever was not moved fully. It is wise to adjust it, so the lever is at its stop, before the cable knob bottoms out on travel.

As Dieseltech posted, things may be stuck inside the pump. Just because it dripped doesn't mean something inside hasn't stuck.
 
If I have to remove the injection pump if my timing has already been set by the top dead center Mark and number one cylinder, will it all stay the same if I remove the injector pump and rebuild it (in other words as long as after I remove it I do not turn the engine over?)
I did not expect to have issues with this injection pump because before the rebuild it would start immediately when cranked over, it just had a bad knock sound which I found,Thanks Matt
 
If there's any traces of water in fuel, or bio diesel, setting unused since April is long enough for the metering valve/plungers and/or delivery valve to stick. I repair and test four or five pumps each month for the same trouble. Just went through an AC 220 pump for the same trouble last week.
 
(quoted from post at 18:58:37 11/06/22) If there's any traces of water in fuel, or bio diesel, setting unused since April is long enough for the metering valve/plungers and/or delivery valve to stick. I repair and test four or five pumps each month for the same trouble. Just went through an AC 220 pump for the same trouble last week.
Okay so is it most likely just a good cleaning that's needed? I may see if I can hire it to be cleaned/checked out and reassembled...
 
(quoted from post at 03:34:55 11/07/22)
(quoted from post at 18:58:37 11/06/22) If there's any traces of water in fuel, or bio diesel, setting unused since April is long enough for the metering valve/plungers and/or delivery valve to stick. I repair and test four or five pumps each month for the same trouble. Just went through an AC 220 pump for the same trouble last week.
Okay so is it most likely just a good cleaning that's needed? I may see if I can hire it to be cleaned/checked out and reassembled...

When I remove this pump it will not mess with the timing as long as I don't turn it over after removing it correct?
 
You need to set the internal pump marks BEFORE removing the pump. It makes going back on MUCH easier to keep pump from being installed 180 degrees out
of time.
 
(quoted from post at 04:30:53 11/07/22) You need to set the internal pump marks BEFORE removing the pump. It makes going back on MUCH easier to keep pump from being installed 180 degrees out
of time.
Ok, I don't recall seeing that in my rebuild manual? How does one go about doing that? I'm assuming the pump has a keyway somehow into the timing gears? Thanks Matt
 
Well I had a local diesel engine Guy come out and look at it and he thinks like you say diesel tech that something is plugged, but now I need to get the timing marks aligned before removing the pump and the loader frame is right in the way of that and when I take the timing cover off the injection pump diesel fuel runs out constantly so it makes it even more difficult to see that those two marks are aligned. Are there any other ways of doing this and I'm assuming I need to crank the engine over and watch for those marks to align? I may be able to use a mirror but I'm not sure. Thanks Matt
 
When I remove the injection pump does the flywheel timing mark need to be 8 degrees before top dead center and the pointer aligned inside the injection pump? On a 1972 188 diesel with a roosa master fuel injection pump I can remove the injection pump just by removing the three bolts that hold it to the timing assembly correct? Will the shaft stay held into the timing assembly or will it come out with the pump? Thanks Matt
 
(quoted from post at 04:01:44 11/08/22) When I remove the injection pump does the flywheel timing mark need to be 8 degrees before top dead center and the pointer aligned inside the injection pump? On a 1972 188 diesel with a roosa master fuel injection pump I can remove the injection pump just by removing the three bolts that hold it to the timing assembly correct? Will the shaft stay held into the timing assembly or will it come out with the pump? Thanks Matt

All correct. Shaft stays.
Be certain that injector's not getting fuel before you go thru all this. It can be hard to spot. Does it run? Inspection plate below flywheel to let you freshen timing marks & rotate crank by hand? Mirror for viewing timing.

This post was edited by WilBury on 11/08/2022 at 04:08 am.
 
(quoted from post at 05:07:13 11/08/22)
(quoted from post at 04:01:44 11/08/22) When I remove the injection pump does the flywheel timing mark need to be 8 degrees before top dead center and the pointer aligned inside the injection pump? On a 1972 188 diesel with a roosa master fuel injection pump I can remove the injection pump just by removing the three bolts that hold it to the timing assembly correct? Will the shaft stay held into the timing assembly or will it come out with the pump? Thanks Matt

All correct. Shaft stays.
Be certain that injector's not getting fuel before you go thru all this. It can be hard to spot. Does it run? Inspection plate below flywheel to let you freshen timing marks & rotate crank by hand? Mirror for viewing timing.

It does not run, I've completely rebuilt the engine in frame. I was able to confirm on flywheel at top dead center number one intake and exhaust valves push rods are loose and when I rotated it 8 before top dead center the two lines in the inspection window pump were aligned. When disassembling some of it tonight the bottom 9/16 bolt that holds the input diesel line on the pump was at least three turns loose and I did not touch it so I don't know how this engine ran before I tore it down, but it did and actually started very easily and ran fine other than a knock in the engine which I found the number three wrist pin bushing was pretty much gone. If this 9/16" bolt that holds fuel line on the injection pump line to the inlet where the injector is was loose could that stop it from priming all the lines? I had good fuel flow into the pump but nothing coming out. Now I'm tempted to tighten everything up once more before I remove the injection pump but I also think this injection pump is original and this engine has or had very high hours when I bought it so it most likely needs rebuilt anyhow. Thoughts? Thanks Matt

This post was edited by WilBury on 11/08/2022 at 04:08 am.
 
Not sure if I understand you correctly...Have you tried to start it yet? How about after tightening this last bolt? Is it the "banjo" bolt holding the high-pressure injector fuel line to the injection pump that wasn't seeming to get fuel? I wouldn't expect one high-pressure line to affect the others. Me, I'd try to start it before tearing it down.

This post was edited by WilBury on 11/08/2022 at 03:39 pm.
 
(quoted from post at 16:37:51 11/08/22) Not sure if I understand you correctly...Have you tried to start it yet? How about after tightening this last bolt? Is it the "banjo" bolt holding the high-pressure injector fuel line to the injection pump that wasn't seeming to get fuel? I wouldn't expect one high-pressure line to affect the others. Me, I'd try to start it before tearing it down.

I have tried to get diesel to the inlet out of the pump but can't. I ran out of daylight once I found this bolt loose it was about dark. There's four 9/16 had bolts that each one goes to a injector that are mounted on the side of the pump and one of those was really loose and I'm wondering if that would stop it from priming fuel out of the pump? There's no way it will start because there's no diesel coming out of the pump lines...

This post was edited by WilBury on 11/08/2022 at 03:39 pm.
 
I wasn't sure if my pump was getting fuel. Had some flow past the filters but not at the pump inlet. I applied the minimum air pressure I could just blowing into a fitting on the fuel tank. Not sealed mind you, just enough to give it some positive pressure. That got the pump primed nicely, lots of fuel at the timing window. Took a few tries of the starter to get fuel at the injectors. Dieseltech told me not to expect any gravity flow past the pump inlet, except perhaps the timing window. She got to be turning over to output fuel to the lines.
 
(quoted from post at 17:56:54 11/08/22) I wasn't sure if my pump was getting fuel. Had some flow past the filters but not at the pump inlet. I applied the minimum air pressure I could just blowing into a fitting on the fuel tank. Not sealed mind you, just enough to give it some positive pressure. That got the pump primed nicely, lots of fuel at the timing window. Took a few tries of the starter to get fuel at the injectors. Dieseltech told me not to expect any gravity flow past the pump inlet, except perhaps the timing window. She got to be turning over to output fuel to the lines.
I have plenty of fuel at the inlet to the pump and when I remove the timing window cover there was a lot of diesel in there...

Like I said I don't know if one of the output 9/16 bolts being three rotations loose could not let the pump prime (I would still think that it would prime because it does not know where it's pumping the fuel it should have been pushing fuel out that loose bolt if it was working correctly in my mind which I don't think it was, so that leads me to believe something stuck inside the pump)?
 
So, your pump is primed. If there's no output from the pump at any lines when cranking, follow the expert advice from Dieseltech et al. I take it there's no smoke when cranking?
 
(quoted from post at 04:47:27 11/09/22) So, your pump is primed. If there's no output from the pump at any lines when cranking, follow the expert advice from Dieseltech et al. I take it there's no smoke when cranking?
No smoke at all, I'm taking pump off and sending to( "Dieseltech" on here ,he's very knowledgeable and has a lot of experience )to repair today.
With it being a complete overhaul already done I'll gladly pay a expert to make my pump function correct
Thanks guys
 
Good call! I sent him my pump & injectors. Decent turnaround time & of course he knows what he's doing. Pre-time it for removal. He will want you to tie back the throttle to wide-open position & double bag it with rags to soak up any leakage. No stinky mail.
 

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