Valve lash after retorque

WilBury

Member
Retorqued the head on my rebuilt Case 188D after 4 hrs, most of it at high revs & a good hour or more of work.
I was a little surprised to find that the valve lash had tightened up a good 3-5 thou on most valves & a couple stayed about the same or maybe a thou or two looser.
Is this normal?
 
Was there any heat in the engine when you rechecked the rockers? Rocker settings change as the engine heats up and some mfgrs recommend hot settings instead of cold

You are seeing the valve of the retorque procedure, other than heat expanding the valve train components you may be seeing the head gasket taking more crush as it heats and cools. valves seating in would not be noticeable enough to change the lash.

You have really paid attention to detail and you should have a good engine for years to come.
 
I have all head studs with separate nuts & washers. Recommended torque 95-105 ft. lbs.
First try, engine still hot, misread the torque wrench & set to 100 as well as messed up the sequence a little on some outer studs. One stud I even went too far by almost half a turn. Didn't even realize I had to pull the injectors too! Had a nut welded on a sacrificial 11/16" socket to reach another deep socket for the two long studs.
Second try, still some warmth left in the engine, took them all to 105 ft. lbs. in correct sequence.
Had to pull the rocker arms to get to some so that may have disturbed things a little.
Didn't get to torqing down & resetting rockers for a couple days, so was stone cold, Steve Austin. I should have recorded all the differing valve lashes but didn't.
I'll run & work it a little again then recheck valve lash one more time. Hot & cold.
I'm still impressed by how much more gasket crush I got with retorquing the head. Good thing I eliminated that drilled bolt behind the water pump & loosened the other 3 bolts at the front of the head!
Oh & I'm still getting some blowby tho the smoke has lessened. Hopefully I haven't already glazed it up...
 
(quoted from post at 11:30:16 10/31/22) I have all head studs with separate nuts & washers. Recommended torque 95-105 ft. lbs.
First try, engine still hot, misread the torque wrench & set to 100 as well as messed up the sequence a little on some outer studs. One stud I even went too far by almost half a turn. Didn't even realize I had to pull the injectors too! Had a nut welded on a sacrificial 11/16" socket to reach another deep socket for the two long studs.
Second try, still some warmth left in the engine, took them all to 105 ft. lbs. in correct sequence.
Had to pull the rocker arms to get to some so that may have disturbed things a little.
Didn't get to torqing down & resetting rockers for a couple days, so was stone cold, Steve Austin. I should have recorded all the differing valve lashes but didn't.
I'll run & work it a little again then recheck valve lash one more time. Hot & cold.
I'm still impressed by how much more gasket crush I got with retorquing the head. Good thing I eliminated that drilled bolt behind the water pump & loosened the other 3 bolts at the front of the head!
Oh & I'm still getting some blowby tho the smoke has lessened. Hopefully I haven't already glazed it up...

A lot of years at it and I have some advice others may not like but just put it to work, do not baby it. I always put the oil in them that I would use after break in. I would be careful about additives. I am an old timer and get in trouble with my good friend John Saeli but I prefer straight weight oils, but when I say that he reminds me of the advancements in oil technology, which is true, but I made a life of this and stuck in my ways. My jobs generally get 30 right from the start. If u used a good multi weight you will be fine.
 
Not to hijack your post but when I
disassembled my engine and head there was
no bolt behind the water pump and there's
only one hole that looks to be threaded
through the water pump housing and into
the block (but there is a high part in the
casting of the water pump housing even if
you were to put a bolt in it it would not
sit flat when tightened and it actually
doesn't even look like there should be a
bolt in it?)
 
Dang mEl,where were you last week when I asked about ZDDP?
I threw in a pint of Lucas break in additive for flat tappets. It did cross my mind that it might not have been so great for breaking in the rings. I used Delvac 15W40, is what it is. Temps here are not much above freezing.
First run, I hadn't installed the hydraulic pump yet so just going on revs for an hour or more.
Second run, bolted the loader frame on, keeping the revs up & varied. By this time, I had over 4 hrs on it.
I should have worked it right off the bat up against the hydraulic main relief but didn't do that till after I had the loader on.
Toasted the paint on the exhaust manifold to a nice burnt orange & took the hydraulic fluid to as hot as I dared. No moisture left in that system! Wish I had a couple feet of snow to push already but I guess it will come soon enough. I'll be running it sparingly until then & under load when I do. Do you think there's hope still of seating the rings properly or have I already blown it?
 
"Not to hijack your post..."
Lol, Matt, after what I did to your thread, you can hijack mine anytime!
Not to worry about the missing bolt. It's a good thing. My gasket seems to be sealing well just on the three.
 
(quoted from post at 14:07:17 10/31/22) "Not to hijack your post..."
Lol, Matt, after what I did to your thread, you can hijack mine anytime!
Not to worry about the missing bolt. It's a good thing. My gasket seems to be sealing well just on the three.

I will have to take a picture of what I think is being talked about here and post it here this evening while I'm working on it (there is a street through hole in behind the water pump on the back side of the water pump housing casting and then there's a threaded hole in the head)
In the water pump housing casting right next to the hole there is a deformation in the casting that's probably the size of a pencil eraser right next to the hole so even if you put a bolt in it it would be crooked when you tightened it up? Like I say I'll take a picture of it this evening and post it here to see if this is what is being referenced...
 
(quoted from post at 08:49:28 11/01/22)
(quoted from post at 14:07:17 10/31/22) "Not to hijack your post..."
Lol, Matt, after what I did to your thread, you can hijack mine anytime!
Not to worry about the missing bolt. It's a good thing. My gasket seems to be sealing well just on the three.

I will have to take a picture of what I think is being talked about here and post it here this evening while I'm working on it (there is a street through hole in behind the water pump on the back side of the water pump housing casting and then there's a threaded hole in the head)
In the water pump housing casting right next to the hole there is a deformation in the casting that's probably the size of a pencil eraser right next to the hole so even if you put a bolt in it it would be crooked when you tightened it up? Like I say I'll take a picture of it this evening and post it here to see if this is what is being referenced...

Here is the bolt hole I see behind my water pump, but the water pump housing has a raised part in the casting so the bolt and washer wouldn't even be flat at all when tightened. It did not have this bolt when I took it apart so what will happen with the bolt out as far as coolant goes? I also need to know how to bolt on my alternator I bought as this engine did not have one, it only had a spring loaded tensioner (it looks like the wiring is still in place so somebody must have removed it at some point but now I'm not sure what brackets or how it's supposed to bolt onto the engine?)
Thanks Matt

This post was edited by Hunt4ihhayrakeid on 11/02/2022 at 02:55 am.
 
(quoted from post at 02:53:44 11/02/22)
(quoted from post at 08:49:28 11/01/22)
(quoted from post at 14:07:17 10/31/22) "Not to hijack your post..."
Lol, Matt, after what I did to your thread, you can hijack mine anytime!
Not to worry about the missing bolt. It's a good thing. My gasket seems to be sealing well just on the three.

I will have to take a picture of what I think is being talked about here and post it here this evening while I'm working on it (there is a street through hole in behind the water pump on the back side of the water pump housing casting and then there's a threaded hole in the head)
In the water pump housing casting right next to the hole there is a deformation in the casting that's probably the size of a pencil eraser right next to the hole so even if you put a bolt in it it would be crooked when you tightened it up? Like I say I'll take a picture of it this evening and post it here to see if this is what is being referenced...
This post was edited by Hunt4ihhayrakeid on 11/02/2022 at 03:00 am.
 
Without that bolt, there will be a larger hole for bleeding air out of the cooling system. Not sure if it will affect warm up times due to more circulation before thermostat opens.
The lump inside the housing may be due to damage from the old bolt backing out against the pump or some weld repair perhaps. On disassembly, I found my pump had a fin or two brazed back on so that probably happened to mine.
Here's a link to the alternator setup on the 580B:

https://www.mycnhistore.com/ca/en/c...56875BD6/BCD06496-EFBE-E111-9FCE-005056875BD6
 
(quoted from post at 05:50:39 11/02/22) Without that bolt, there will be a larger hole for bleeding air out of the cooling system. Not sure if it will affect warm up times due to more circulation before thermostat opens.
The lump inside the housing may be due to damage from the old bolt backing out against the pump or some weld repair perhaps. On disassembly, I found my pump had a fin or two brazed back on so that probably happened to mine.
Here's a link to the alternator setup on the 580B:

https://www.mycnhistore.com/ca/en/c...56875BD6/BCD06496-EFBE-E111-9FCE-005056875BD6

That link doesn't open anything up as far as pictures of how it's mounted it's just a parts list from what I can tell? It'd be great if somebody has a picture of it mounted on the engine so I can get a idea of what it's supposed to look like when it's done mounted? Thanks Matt
 
(quoted from post at 08:30:16 10/31/22) I have all head studs with separate nuts & washers. Recommended torque 95-105 ft. lbs.
First try, engine still hot, misread the torque wrench & set to 100 as well as messed up the sequence a little on some outer studs. One stud I even went too far by almost half a turn. Didn't even realize I had to pull the injectors too! Had a nut welded on a sacrificial 11/16" socket to reach another deep socket for the two long studs.
Second try, still some warmth left in the engine, took them all to 105 ft. lbs. in correct sequence.
Had to pull the rocker arms to get to some so that may have disturbed things a little.
Didn't get to torqing down & resetting rockers for a couple days, so was stone cold, Steve Austin. I should have recorded all the differing valve lashes but didn't.
I'll run & work it a little again then recheck valve lash one more time. Hot & cold.
I'm still impressed by how much more gasket crush I got with retorquing the head. Good thing I eliminated that drilled bolt behind the water pump & loosened the other 3 bolts at the front of the head!
Oh & I'm still getting some blowby tho the smoke has lessened. Hopefully I haven't already glazed it up...
So I finally got mine back together and running ... Have you noticed with working yours more that it has lessened in smoke and blow by out the 1-in hose from the valve cover?
Thanks Matt
 
I am glad that you guys are seeing the results of the recommended retorquing and valve reset, sure, you can oftimes get away with shortcuts if you are a shade tree mechanic but when you are selling and placing a strong guarantee of your work you do not want the next job on you. The oil arguments go on and on and my best friends on here disagree on some issues but my rebuilds all got Case 30 wt and straight to work, no babying allowed! My ag engines I worked hard on the dyno after a brief warm up of 1/2 and varied loads for maybe an hour. DB engines needed considerable break-in before full load for any extender time from new. To long at load and they could tighten up
 
@Matt
Glad to hear you got her running, you're just about as no-quit/stubborn as I am! I wish I had that style valve cover with the hose, I'd put in a PCV valve if I could. Mine has the breather cap so blowby just collects under the hood. :-( Haven't checked it lately but will next time I plow snow. A little exhaust smoke on startup but seems pretty good while working. Eyes stinging a bit, perhaps because I sewed up a custom 3-size bra for the rad so it runs nice & hot for winter work and tends to vaporize any stray fluids. Open-station sitting behind a puller fan, so to be expected I guess.

@mEl
Daimler-Benz?? Oh, David Brown, lol. Hopefully that doesn't apply to the 188D. What do you mean, "tighten up", pistons?
One concern at present is a slow leak at the front main seal. I had wear sleeves put on the crank & front pulley and wonder if they had any texture to them to promote sealing. I'll bug the rebuilder & ask if he can think of any reason for it. Maybe it just needs to wear in. I've seen mention somewhere about the seal being overwhelmed by the oil & maybe mitigated by the felt dust seal but can't find it anymore.
Otherwise, engine seems to run well. Doesn't really start much better than before but doesn't sputter either. After running diesels for 50 years my ears can detect a [i:239fcb0ceb]very[/i:239fcb0ceb] slight burble or raggedness sometimes while working. Timing gears have over .040" backlash, so that's probably why.
What do you think about retorquing the head again next summer after 100+ hours? Worthwhile or just leave it?

regards, Wil
 
(quoted from post at 07:55:46 12/16/22) @Matt
Glad to hear you got her running, you're just about as no-quit/stubborn as I am! I wish I had that style valve cover with the hose, I'd put in a PCV valve if I could. Mine has the breather cap so blowby just collects under the hood. :-( Haven't checked it lately but will next time I plow snow. A little exhaust smoke on startup but seems pretty good while working. Eyes stinging a bit, perhaps because I sewed up a custom 3-size bra for the rad so it runs nice & hot for winter work and tends to vaporize any stray fluids. Open-station sitting behind a puller fan, so to be expected I guess.

Wilbury:
What kind of PCV valve and where would you put it and why? Thanks Matt

@mEl
Daimler-Benz?? Oh, David Brown, lol. Hopefully that doesn't apply to the 188D. What do you mean, "tighten up", pistons?
One concern at present is a slow leak at the front main seal. I had wear sleeves put on the crank & front pulley and wonder if they had any texture to them to promote sealing. I'll bug the rebuilder & ask if he can think of any reason for it. Maybe it just needs to wear in. I've seen mention somewhere about the seal being overwhelmed by the oil & maybe mitigated by the felt dust seal but can't find it anymore.
Otherwise, engine seems to run well. Doesn't really start much better than before but doesn't sputter either. After running diesels for 50 years my ears can detect a [i:f964b5edbe]very[/i:f964b5edbe] slight burble or raggedness sometimes while working. Timing gears have over .040" backlash, so that's probably why.
What do you think about retorquing the head again next summer after 100+ hours? Worthwhile or just leave it?

regards, Wil
 
I've no idea what size or kind but I'm thinking of the type that fits into a grommet on the valve cover just to prevent cold air from getting in there & making milky oil condensation. Just a thought.
 

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