Case VAO starting problems

CaseyCub

Member
On a 1949 Case VAO, I've got spark, it's cranking well, but there is fuel being spit out the exhaust and it won't fire. When I pull the plugs after that, they were soaked in gas, so it's flooding the engine while it cranks. Does anyone know what is causing this? The tractor is sitting in a field, has been for at least two years, with a bucket loader on it, so I HAVE to get it running to move it. Any speculation/knowledge on what to look at would be appreciated, as I need this moved in the next month.
 
Bad float or stuck float or dirt/rust in the float needle seat. One that has sat that long in a field the float could very easily be stuck of it could have gotten some water in the carb and had it freeze and that will destroy a float. But one can in fact tow a tractor with a loader by snaking a chain under the bucket and then hooking it up to some frame work up say 1-3 foot up so when you pull the bucket comes up and then stays that way as long as your pulling
 
Okay, so I'll go pull the carb and check the float and needle. I figured, it's getting gas, the carb's not stuck closed, but I never thought about the float and needle being stuck OPEN. Thank you, I didn't know about the loader trick, either.
 
I've used that loader trick a good many times over the years to pull one back to the shop
 
Got the carb off and apart on the workshop bench, cleaned out (LOTS of gunk in the bottom and in the various ports came pouring out of it). Only problem is I made a rookie mistake: I pulled the jets out before I screwed them in to see how they were set. Any idea what the settings are supposed to be on it, or where I could find them? On the side of the carb float bowl is "MARVEL" and below that is "SCHEBLER", both molded onto the metal; and directly opposite the throttle linkage is "48" "TSX" and "114" stamped into what appears to be an irregular-shaped brass plate.
 
Idle jet the one closes to where it bolts to the manifold is set at around 1-1.5 turns out. The lower one which is he main jet set at 2.5 turns out to start with then fine tune once you have it running
 
Got the carb set, got it on, now I don't have spark again! Last time it was the distributer cap/rotor was corroded. Been swapping parts with the other, running VAO in this farmyard, and so far the coil, cap, rotor, plugs, wires, and connections are all good. I THINK it's the on/off switch on the dash, someone replaced the pull/push with a toggle, and I don't think the toggle was weather resistant enough! I'll test that tomorrow, ran out of light for the day. Thank you everyone for the carb help!
 
Very easy way to test ignition is a simple hot wire. Run a wire from the ignition side of the battery to the ignition side of the coil. With the points close you should see a small spark if no spark then the points need to be ceaned
 
This thing doesn't have points. It's got a cap and rotor, but no points. When I took the on/off switch off, it revealed a broken wire, which I'm going back up the road to replace as soon as the downpour lets up a bit. Switch tested fine with a light circuit tester I made myself.
I've used that bypass wire you mentioned on my Cub Cadets, though! It really is handy.
 
Like old said, it has to have one or the other. Can you take a picture to post here of the distributor with the cap, rotor and dust cover removed so we can see what's under there to help you better?
 
I unfortunately do not have the technology available to me to take a picture and put it on the internet. Perhaps I'm missing something in this discussion. May I recount what's been done so far? Under the distributer cap is the rotor and the 4 contacts that the rotor hits. The contacts and rotor are not burnt or dirty, the plugs are clean, the wires and connections are clean and secure. The kill switch is good, the battery is good, the cables are clean and in good condition, and I fixed all the broken wires. Maybe I'm just used to the Kohler engd, you mentioneines in the Cub Cadets, but I could not identify a points cover on this Case tractor engine. J Hamilton, you mentioned a dust cover, what is that? Old, if you could point (sorry) out the points location on a VAO, I could give the bypass wire a try.
 
With the cap off and the rotor off there should be a black cover which the cap sat on. Under that cover is where the points and condenser will be and common for the points to corroded and not work correctly
 
By the way O know these tractors well since I have 4 VAC and 1 VAI. That dust cover can sometimes be a bit hard to get to pop loose by the way
 
If I remember right the point gap should be 0.025 but that is with out me trying to find the manual. Sometimes hard to find the correct manual when you have a pile of them a good 3 foot tall LOL
 
Just a question: Did you replace toe condenser of the working tractor or put in a new one? If so the new ones seem to mostly be junk, and it doesn't matter what kind of vehicle it is.
 
I did not touch the condenser. It was under the dust plate of the distributer, and after cleaning the points, I had spark again, so I didn't bother with the condenser. Still won't start, though.
 
Low compression can cause that. Also you might check the plugs and make sure there not wet. If wet there gas fouled
 
Plugs are still dry, even after repeated cranking and manipulating the throttle. PLENTY of fat sparks on the points, and plugs when tested out of the engine. I confess, this is starting to frustrate me. I've done everything that everyone has suggested now, and the durn thing still refuses to fire. Plugs, points, cap and rotor, carb, and a few new wires and cleaned every connection. All it's done so far is wear down 3 batteries.
 
The first pic is the dust cover with the cap and rotor removed. Second pic is the points and condenser under the dust cap. Hope this helps.
cvphoto73963.jpg


cvphoto73964.jpg
 
Thank you for the visual. I got that dust cover to pop loose, cleaned the points, and now have nice fat sparks. But still no go.
 
I know this may not be easy to do but pull the rubber tube between the carb intake and air cleaner then hold you hand over the air intake of the carb and try to start it. You should both feel a good suction and also get gas on your hand. It may even try to start when you do that
 
Right, clockwise! I was typing it counter clockwise starting with the forwardmost cylinder. But yes, it is in that order.
 
This is the distributor factory attitude for VA series and how to install and time. Firing order is 1342, timing set TDC, points gap 0.020", plug gap 0.025" Distributor need not be set at factory attitude to run an engine but must fire in correct firing order at or near TDC on the compression stroke.

Rotate the crankshaft (CW as viewed from the front) until #1 cyl is TDC on the compression stroke (make sure it is not TC on the exhaust stroke). The factory distributor attitude is with the rotor pointing near 3 o'clock to fire #1. When the engine is running the rotor will be turning CW.

Looking down on the distributor:
Stab the distributor with the rotor in place. The dist drive gears are helical, as the gears mesh the rotor will turn CCW so start the stab with the rotor pointing somewhere after 4 o'clock and when in full mesh the rotor will end up pointing near 3 o'clock when the distributor is seated.

When you get the rotor in that position tighten the hold down bolt. Loosen the clamp screw and turn the dist head until the breaker actuator is on the top of the cam lobe, set the points @ .020" with a feeler gage. Turn the dist head CW until the points are closed now turn the head back CCW until the points just start to open and tighten the clamp screw.

The engine firing order is 1342 and the rotation of the rotor is CW so when you put the cap on, put the #1 cyl wire in the tower that is near 3 o'clock, #3 wire near 6, #4 wire near 9, and #2 near 12. That is good enough to start the engine and tweak the timing in to TDC with a timing light.

The TDC timing mark may be just a line ascribed on the flywheel sometimes marked with “0” or other marking that changed over the production years. The IAD 6003 distributor starts to advance at 570 rpm so you need to set the initial timing preferably between 400 - 500 rpm. If you are using an induction timing light and cannot find the timing mark running at idle rpm and turning the distributor head, put the timing light pick-up on the coil wire. That will provide 4 times the light flashes to light up the timing hole. You can time the engine with the induction pick-up on either #1 or #4 or the coil wire, it is all the same timing.

Joe

Pic 1 is factory attitude static timing showing rotor in position to turn CW about to fire #1 cylinder.
cvphoto73995.jpg


Pic 2 is factory attitude firing order. Clamp is induction timing light pickup on the coil wire.
cvphoto73996.jpg


Pic 3 is flywheel timing hole on the left side bell housing. It may have a cover with a bolt hinge to swing it open. Line up the TDC line on the flywheel with notch on the bell housing.
cvphoto73997.jpg
 
No, I haven't. I asked this question on another tractor group as well, and someone else suggested starting fluid. I've never heard of using carb cleaner to help it fire. I didn't try any kind of starting aid because I didn't think it would make it through the oilbath cleaner. Never crossed my mind to remove the rubber tube between the breather and the air intake until someone mentioned it. That is now first on the list in the morning. I'm running out of free time daylight hours!
 
If it does, would that mean the air filter is plugged up and just needs to be cleaned out? If that's the case (sorry, no pun intended) that'll be my next question.
 
In most cases if you have to do that to get it to run it means you have a carb problem
 
Timing checked out, gave the carb a second cleaning, then a third. An hour of scraping and poking, two cans of carb cleaner, and several dropped screws later, it fired to life! Thanks to all who helped out here, not just for the advice, but the patience with a newbie! Next time, hydraulic pump!
 
Thank YOU for the visuals! Know anything about hydraulic pumps?
There's one mounted to the rear pto. It turns, and I'm assuming it works, but the control lever is frozen.
Pictures coming sunday. I posted a separate question in the implements forum about it.
 
Funnily enough, even though it turned out to be the carb on THIS tractor, on it's sister today it wouldn't start. I popped the dust cover, filed the points a bit, and it almost immediately fired to life! So, thank you for the help several times over now!
 
Trying to help people is one of the biggest reason I am on this site. Knowledge needs to be given to help others and the keep things from the past alive today
 
Quick question for you, Old. How do you count your turns, by full 360-degree turns or halfway (180-degree) turns? I was always taught to do 180's, lining the screwdriver slot up each time to be sure of where it is.
 
Maybe that's what I'm doing wrong, then. Your 2.5 turns would be 5 of my "turns" and maybe that's why she's not going, she's not getting the right mixture.....
 
Thank you. I was always taught to count "half turns" to make sure it lines up correctly, so in my mind that's become a "turn" I'll go fix it and hope it fires to life again!
 
I also do the half turn thing but I also count half then one then 1.5 then 2 etc.
 

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