Another 411b newbie

Herada12

Member
Hi all. Just joining the forum today and this is my first post.

Today I picked up what I have been told is a 411b with a loader attachment. It has power assist and 3 point hitch. The serial tag reads 411b. Although I see the faint marking on the hood reading 400?

The previous owner says that the transmission fluid is entering the rear end and overflowing thru the axle breather under the seat. He used hydraulic fluid for the transmission. From my reading that is incorrect fluid. What should be used? Also does the loader attachment use the same oil supply from the transmission?

The engine starts easily and seems ok. Although I suspect that it may be low on power because when in 4th gear and I put it in direct drive the engine dies and has to be switched back to caseomatic. Or someone think this could be transmission related?

I have a ton of questions but ill leave this here for now. In the mean while, thanks in advance.

Adam from pennsylvania.[size=7:4227015750][/size:4227015750]
 
Welcome Adam!

Yes, your hydraulics use the same oil as the Case-O-Matic. Originally Case recommended straight hydraulic oil or "type 1" ATF, most guys here are using dex-merc, myself included. Most likely reason it's migrating to the diff/gearbox is the Eagle Hitch piston, not a difficult fix for a couple of huskies, or a person with an engine hoist. I'm an oldster and I managed it alone but it was all I wanted to do and then some. Don't know why it would die when you pull the direct drive lever, in modern terms it's just a torque converter lockup. Linkage hitting some wires? Does it feel low on power? I recommend manuals. BTW 400 is what they all say, serial # tells what it is exactly, you have a 411b, the b stands for brow, the eyebrow over the headlights. IIRC the b's were only made '58-9-60.
 
(quoted from post at 03:33:35 09/15/19) Welcome Adam!

Yes, your hydraulics use the same oil as the Case-O-Matic. Originally Case recommended straight hydraulic oil or "type 1" ATF, most guys here are using dex-merc, myself included. Most likely reason it's migrating to the diff/gearbox is the Eagle Hitch piston, not a difficult fix for a couple of huskies, or a person with an engine hoist. I'm an oldster and I managed it alone but it was all I wanted to do and then some. Don't know why it would die when you pull the direct drive lever, in modern terms it's just a torque converter lockup. Linkage hitting some wires? Does it feel low on power? I recommend manuals. BTW 400 is what they all say, serial # tells what it is exactly, you have a 411b, the b stands for brow, the eyebrow over the headlights. IIRC the b's were only made '58-9-60.

I know its losing the trans oil somewhere and somehow. Ive onky ran it a few short minutes and the loader has already begun to shutter as if its low on oil again. I'm hoping it is just the seal for the three point lift cylinder. Ive heard there is a plug in the shaft that goes to it that can leak as well.

As far as power I'm not really sure. I did remove the gas tank today and cleaned it and started with fresh gas. The pluf wires are cruddy and the boots are either torn or non existent. The cap and rotor had significant wear but I was able to clean them and get it running better.

Any idea what the specs are for point and spark plug gap? Planning to order tune up stuff. Cap rotor wires plug etc...

How about rear axle oil? Just gear oil? And how about for the engine oil? I heard straight 30w?

Thanks a ton!
 
Let's get our nomenclature on the same page. You have hydraulic oil from the torque tube sump migrating into the 4 speed transmission sump. The most likely leak is the Eagle hitch piston seals, put some weight on the hitch in the up position and see if it leaks down over a few hours, that will most likely be piston seals leaking. If the hitch does not leak down, post back and we can discuss the PTO drive shaft seal where the shaft exits the center of the hollow main drive shaft for the transmission. If you don't have a PTO the main shaft has a plug where the seal would have been that could possibly come adrift. The front drive seals in the transmission can leak also but that is not common.

The torque tube is the transition housing between the rear of the engine and the front of the 4 speed transmission. The Torque tube is the sump for the COM, hydraulics systems pump (Eagle hitch, remotes, & sometimes for loader) It may also be the housing for optional dual range gear train and shuttle which provides 8 speeds forward and 8 speeds reverse, reverse speed is 25% faster than forward in any gear for faster front loader cycles.

The 4 speed transmission housing bolts to the back of the torque tube. The transmission and final drive (differential, axles) share the same housing and oil sump. Factory oil for the transmission is SAE 90.

The loader can be operated off the tractor hydraulic pump in the torque tube or more likely has a pto pump driven off the front of the engine crankshaft with one of the loader uprights serving as the hydraulic reservoir.

Point gap is 0.020", plug gap 0.025". Factory plug was Champion D16 (now 516). Best plug for this G148 cid engine by popular acclaim here is AC 3116. Use copper plug wires only.

Factory engine oil was SAE 5, 10, 20 & 30 pending ambient temperature. SAE 10w30 is fine, better modern oil than anything available late '50's.

Model 411B is a general purpose (ag) tractor in the 400B series which includes the 410B utility.
400B series was built only 1958 & 59 model years which run from 10/1/57 through 9/30/59.
Starting s/n for 1958 model year 6095009, and for 1959 model year 6120001.

Joe
 
(quoted from post at 08:35:58 09/15/19) Let's get our nomenclature on the same page. You have hydraulic oil from the torque tube sump migrating into the 4 speed transmission sump. The most likely leak is the Eagle hitch piston seals, put some weight on the hitch in the up position and see if it leaks down over a few hours, that will most likely be piston seals leaking. If the hitch does not leak down, post back and we can discuss the PTO drive shaft seal where the shaft exits the center of the hollow main drive shaft for the transmission. If you don't have a PTO the main shaft has a plug where the seal would have been that could possibly come adrift. The front drive seals in the transmission can leak also but that is not common.

The torque tube is the transition housing between the rear of the engine and the front of the 4 speed transmission. The Torque tube is the sump for the COM, hydraulics systems pump (Eagle hitch, remotes, & sometimes for loader) It may also be the housing for optional dual range gear train and shuttle which provides 8 speeds forward and 8 speeds reverse, reverse speed is 25% faster than forward in any gear for faster front loader cycles.

The 4 speed transmission housing bolts to the back of the torque tube. The transmission and final drive (differential, axles) share the same housing and oil sump. Factory oil for the transmission is SAE 90.

The loader can be operated off the tractor hydraulic pump in the torque tube or more likely has a pto pump driven off the front of the engine crankshaft with one of the loader uprights serving as the hydraulic reservoir.

Point gap is 0.020", plug gap 0.025". Factory plug was Champion D16 (now 516). Best plug for this G148 cid engine by popular acclaim here is AC 3116. Use copper plug wires only.

Factory engine oil was SAE 5, 10, 20 & 30 pending ambient temperature. SAE 10w30 is fine, better modern oil than anything available late '50's.

Model 411B is a general purpose (ag) tractor in the 400B series which includes the 410B utility.
400B series was built only 1958 & 59 model years which run from 10/1/57 through 9/30/59.
Starting s/n for 1958 model year 6095009, and for 1959 model year 6120001.

Joe

That's some great information. It appears to me that my loader does in fact share the same fluid as the torque tube. My tractor doesnt have a an extra pump anywhere for the loader.

With that being said, does that mean I should be over filling the torque tube to account for the added oil it needs for the loader cylinders? I would imagine the best way to check the fluid level would be with the loader cylinders fully extended so that it is using the most oil?

Is it possible that an over filled torque tube could cause oil to escape into the transmission?

If I go to raise the three point system and it is reluctant to move is that also a good sign that the seals are bad. Its power up only I think. Gravity is all the is used to lower the arms right?
 
John Saeli can get you started on seals an other associated components. He also can provide you with excellent parts and service manuals.Provide him with a serial number from the tractor. It is an aluminum plate approximatly1" X 3" in size.CM
 
(quoted from post at 10:53:03 09/15/19) John Saeli can get you started on seals an other associated components. He also can provide you with excellent parts and service manuals.Provide him with a serial number from the tractor. It is an aluminum plate approximatly1" X 3" in size.CM

I would like to buy parts and repair manuals. I do have a legible vin tag and can retrieve the serial number from it.

Who is John Seali? And how do I get in touch with him.

I have done some research online and couldn't realy find any of the parts I looked up for the 411b. In afraid that many of the parts may not be available anymore.
 
Welcome to the 411b club.id say its the 50 dollar
eagle hitch piston seal.
When you fix it drain all fluids and inside the
torque tube is 2 small plugs in the clutch pack
housing.you need help by turning engine slowly to
see the plugs,use great quality allen
wrenches.then there is filter by hydraul9c
valves and 1 by radiator.you cn wash them if not
real nasty.it takes about 4.5 gallons oil in
caseomtic. Maake sure rubber boot on gearshift is
nice pliable and snug fitting to shift lever too
 

What is the suggested method of cleaning the filters? Rinsing them in gasoline or diesel fuel? And if I remove them is there a seal or gasket or anything that I should have on hand to replace?

Any thing special I should know about before removing the cover on the rear end? Just disconnect the links from the three point arms and unbolt the cover and lift off? I have an engine crane to use to lift it.

Id like to get that cover off and make a diagnosis soon. Even though I havent obtained a repair manual. Firewood season is here and that's what I bought this tractor for.

I'm going to get a couple of pictures to share with you all today. Hopefully the tractor as as worth the $900 investment that I made.
 
Your tractor is about the same setup as my 611b, just not quite as big. I'd trade you but PA is a fur piece from AZ. In my manual it specifically states that you may need to overfill the COM if you have a loader attached. BTW check it warm with engine idling. Don't bother cleaning the filters, if yours are anything like mine were they'll just crumble if you try and new ones are cheap. Don't forget the o-rings. One filter in the housing in front of the radiator, one in the COM control valve body under the gas tank right side, behind the diverter valve for the loader if you have the factory loader. There are two of those allen head drains just above the two drain plugs for the torque tube, one for the torque converter and one for something else, you need to pull both and they can be a pain, you're working through a 1/2" pipe plug. Yes, since the Eagle hitch hydraulics were designed for gravity-drop and the loader shares that valve, the loader is gravity drop also, you can't use it for a jack if you have a flat tire. John Saeli is the man, he has more parts available than anyone, reasonable prices, excellent service and better advice. Looking forward to pics!
 
If your loader has double acting cylinders you do not need to overfill the torque tube sump as the cylinder fluid volume typically only varies 25% or less per piston stroke. Single acting lift cylinders require more oil volume but check oil level warm with engine idling and note the oil level change while operating the loader. Your Eagle hitch piston is single acting but requires a small volume of oil. Higher torque tube level will not cause oil transfer into the transmission unless there is already a leak present and will it will be accelerated.

You need to take care of the hyd oil transfer leak as a high transmission oil level can leak through differential shaft seals on to your brake discs which are hard to clean and very expensive to replace. For now drain down the transmission to the full mark on the dipstick and check often until you can get the leak fixed.

Pulling the Eagle hitch cover is straight forward; unbolt cover, disconnect oil line and lift arms. Lift arms, rock shaft cover and piston assembly all comes out as one unit.

Pic is final drive area visible after you lift the Eagle hitch asm.

Note the PTO drive shaft seal, that is the 2nd most common cause of oil transfer from the torque tube. If you don?t have a rear PTO there will be a plug where that seal is in the transmission main shaft. You can dry and check if the seal or plug is leaking. Torque tube needs to be full. You can run engine at idle for a few seconds, shutdown watch for seep leak. Check seal occasionally while doing hitch piston seals, best be sure now while cover is off to avoid pulling it again later for seal replacement.

Go to this link and review the exploded views of the parts of the repairs you intend to start on now. (disregard ?diesel? in the title). Many of those part numbers have been changed but some of us can cross-ref to a later p/n. This YT website has many parts. John can provide most any part, original or a suitable substitute, some that you won?t be able to find elsewhere plus professional advice.

Joe

cvphoto36525.jpg

https://partstore.caseih.com/us/parts search.html?csid 27d6fab1f825960838745005ef19cc9a&sl EN&currency epc::mr64318
 

So I did manage to get it torn apart. I do believe the seals in the lift cylinder are shot. Both are very hard and the smallest seal has a chunk missing from it. I did drain the transmission fluid. I refilled the torque tube with hydraulic fluid for now and left the tractor run a few minutes. I did not see any fluid leaking thru the seal from the pto shaft.

One thing that has me a bit confused is, if I'm not running the remote for the three point arms I don't see how it could continue to move fluid past the piston seals into the transmission. With that said, my tilt cylinders are control via switching valve in the hydraulic line to the three point lift cylinder. It seems that when switched to control the loader , the valve is leaking some fluid into the three point lift cylinder. So I may need yo purchase a new valve to get it to stop leaking.

I took some pictures today. Some of the tractor. Some of it torn down. I'm going to attempt to load some pictures. One picture is of the switching valve. Does anyone know where I can purchase a new one? Thanks all.
 

It appears that I don't knkw how to load photos. Maybe it is not possible using my phone. For being just 29 years old I am not very savy when it comes to technology. Any pointers on how to post pictures ?
 

Here are pictures from tear down. Picture 1 shows bad seals on 3 point lifting piston. Picture 2 tractor with cover off. Picture 3 is the switching valve that I believe may be allowing oil to reach the 3 point system even when the switch is directing oil flow to the loader. Can anyone identify this valve? Where can I purchase a new one?

Does anyone think this could be bypassing oil to the 3 point system when it is switched to control the loader?

Can anyone explain what is involved in replacing the seal on the PTO shaft coming out of the rear of the transmission? I am not totally positive that I have a leak there but I feel that if it is an easy fix I may as well go ahead and fix it while I am there.

I drained what I would guess was about 8 gallons of oil out of the rear/transmission. It was full clean up to the top of the cover.
mvphoto42692.jpg


mvphoto42693.jpg


mvphoto42694.jpg
 


I haven't had to take mine apart but I believe it's just 0-rings inside, probably just hardware store stuff.

Joe, is the fluid level in your pic correct? Mine is way high, almost covers the reduction gears, I have an axle seal leaking and yes, my brakes are soaked. Probably a chore for after I retire. My piston seal looked like this:


cvphoto36531.jpg


Make sure your cylinder isn't too badly pitted. I used a regular cylinder hone on mine, it cleaned up pretty good.

cvphoto36532.jpg


cvphoto36533.jpg
 
Kevin my pic is a 310 utility so your oil level is probably correct if you have the right dipstick. 310, 411B, & 611B all have the same transmission dipstick p/n G10348 as the pic.

You likely know the rest of this but for Herada12's info. The ag tractors have a transmission that is about 3" taller than the utility tractors in the same series. Ag tractors have oil flooded axles while utility axles are dry with a grease zerk for the outer bearings. So the same dipstick full mark works for the different oil level required for the different models as it is measuring from the top of the case down to the oil level. In the 400B series; 411B ag tractor transmission oil capacity is about 28 qts, 410B utility tractor is about 17 qts. 611B & 610B would be similar.

Joe

cvphoto36575.jpg
 

Alright. Thanks for the info. When I go to refill the transmission I could probably just fill it before I put the cover for the three point back on and check the level and get it close.

So the case below the where the actual shifter is using the same fluid as the torque tube? Trans fluid ( dex merc ).

I also learned that the pto was not engageing. After I removed the three point cover it was clear that when working the pto lever, the collar that locks the pto driveshaft to the actual pto shaft was not moving. I can move it by hand tools back and forth but it doesnt move along with the motion of the pto lever.

Would it be safe to say that the pto assembly is missing a pin or clip and something is no longer attached and not moving?

Thanks again everyone. Your help has been so great. Hopefully ill have some parts ordered tomorrow and ready to go back together by the weekend.
 
Your loader appears to be a 291B so Kevin's hyd diagram is correct for that loader providing no system changes from factory. Both your lift cylinders and bucket cylinders appear to be DA in your pics. That can't work with your setup so must be camera angle or something. Any hydraulic shop can provide the selector valve (diverter) valve.

As far as changing the PTO drive shaft seal you're getting into a bigger job than it appears. I have renewed PTO shaft seals on several tractor with standard PTO but yours has an independent PTO that I have no experience. As far as the seal and related parts they are the same (pic) but lack of experience in my part is in pulling the independent PTO assembly, it very well and probably is the same procedure as the standard PTO. You should have a service manual for that job.

This is the shaft seal you will be replacing.
cvphoto36586.jpg


This is a standard PTO assembly as pulled. The shaft is about 42" long. I suspect the independent PTO assembly would be the same by not sure.
cvphoto36587.jpg


Someone else here can probably walk you through PTO and seal renewal or just the PTO and I can do the seal. Alternately if you dry (carb cleaner or similar) the seal area well and check for leak as I described and see nothing advise that you renew your hitch piston seals, or just plug off the hyd line to the hitch piston, and use your tractor for the fire wood work checking oil levels often. Buy a service manual, this PTO seal and the hitch piston seals make a good off season job.

Joe
 
What do you mean by this statement"?
"So the case below the where the actual shifter is using the same fluid as the torque tube? Trans fluid ( dex merc )".

Here are some operation and adjustment pics for your independent PTO. Check that lockout (yoke shift) at the top.

Joe

cvphoto36590.jpg


cvphoto36591.jpg


cvphoto36592.jpg


cvphoto36593.jpg
 

Joe. The torque tube and the transmission technically share the same oil right? Dex merc. The rear end which is seen open in the pictures and house the axle gears and differential uses gear oil.

I do believe this 411b is power up and down for the loader and also tilt in both directions. But I'm not positive. Lots of hoses laying between the main frame of the tractor and the loader frame.

I did learn that the loader has a few leaks on the hard lines. I suspect that loosening some of the flared hard line fittings and cleaning them may help to seal them back up. They do appear to be tight tho.

I'm also going to be purchasing the repair and parts manuals soon. I appreciate all the info your giving me being as I'm a bit impatient and eant to get the ball rolling on this project.

Thanks again.
 
Herada12 wrote: "The torque tube and the transmission technically share the same oil right? Dex merc. The rear end which is seen open in the pictures and house the axle gears and differential uses gear oil".

No that is not correct. The 4 speed transmission gear train just below the shifter and the final drive area with the PTO seal share the same sump SAE 90 gear oil, capacity about 28 qts. The dipstick for the sump just happens to be in the final drive area.

When you drain the transmission oil you need to jack each side in turn to all the drain oil from the axle housings.

This pic is not a 400B but the border between the transmission and torque tube is same.
cvphoto36600.jpg
 

Thanks for the clarification. How does the gear oil navigate from the rear end to the transmission? Am I missing something, because I dont see a hole or anything for the fluid to move between the two cavities.
 
(quoted from post at 02:03:49 09/16/19)
Thanks for the clarification. How does the gear oil navigate from the rear end to the transmission? Am I missing something, because I dont see a hole or anything for the fluid to move between the two cavities.

After a closer look it appears that the oil can enter the transmission thru the bearing in the pinion at the very least. But is there a hole towards the bottom that lets the oil transfer between the rear and the transmission. Im sorry for the million questions. Feel free to tell me to wait for the book to arrive at any time.
 
Couldn't find anything in the manual that answers your question exactly, but I did find this that might be useful. Again it's not a 411b but same general setup, it's from my 500/600 ops manual.

cvphoto36604.jpg
 
I don't know how the transmission gear train side and the final drive equalize. You will be filling through the dipstick hole. The pinion bearing appears too far up to be the only communication between the two voids but it does prove that it is one sump for one specific type of oil.

If I ever pull a hitch cover again, I will pull the shifter cover and pour some oil in there and take a pic where it equalizes in to the final drive void. Should have done that before, just never though about it.

The pic is from 400B op manual, same as 600B. The torque tube and transmission meet at that red line between the covers. Look at the sides, you can see the division line and bolts. The front of the transmission is blind except for the main drive shaft hole near top and pinion access hole with cover near the bottom. That end of the torque tube is open.

Joe



cvphoto36617.jpg
 
So if my tilt cylinders and my lift cylinders are both double acting, how is that possible?

I understand that the eagle hitch is only power up. Gravity down. But how can my tilt be switched to that remote and have power both directions?

I think i have something funky going on with my hosing. Somehow the past owner made the 3 point remote lever have power both directions. One way should just relieve pressure right? I noticed that when I raised the three point arms yesterday one direction of the lever it moved up quickly. When i tried to lower it the arms slowly raised??? Somethings messed up right?

<img src="https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cvphotos/cvphoto36532.jpg">
 
I think tonight I will attempt to draw up the hosing on paper. Maybe this will help figure out what might be going on with the hydraulics.
 
Your loader should have DA bucket cylinders and SA lift cylinders.

Look under the gas tank for the control valves that your Eagle hitch and remotes levers linkages attach. There should be two stacked control valves.

The lower control valve should be operated by the Eagle hitch lever. There is only one line from the SA configured interlock block mounted on the control valve that leads down the right side of the tractor to your diverter valve.
cvphoto36645.jpg


The diverter valve can select either the Eagle hitch piston or other SA cylinder(s), and only SA cylinders, as there is only one line for supply&return. The Eagle hitch piston is SA and is one selection. The other selection should be the loader lift cylinders, this line from the diverter valve should branch off to the bottom of both loader lift cylinders which should be SA. In your pic there is a line attached to the top of the lift cylinder, that is the rod end and should be open to the atmosphere if the cylinder is SA, find out where that line goes. It is possible that the piston seals leak bye into the rod side and the oil is pushed out the that top line to a jury rig return to the torque tube sump.

When the diverter valve is open to the Eagle hitch piston and you operate the Eagle hitch lever the Eagle hitch piston has power up from the control valve and gravity down as the oil pressure on the piston is returned torque tube sump via the control valve. On the down stroke air is drawn for the rod end of the piston from the top of the transmission. If the transmission is overfull up to the cover there may not be enough free air volume, the piston becomes air bound and draft arms drop slowly or not all the way down.

When the diverter valve is open to the loader lift cylinders and you operate the Eagle hitch lever, the cylinders have power up and gravity down. That is the problem with the line at the top of the cylinder. You need air to enter the rod end to prevent the cylinder from becoming air bound.



The upper control valve should be operated by the remotes lever. There should be two lines from the DA configured interlock mounted on that control valve that lead down the left side of the tractor to the remotes on the left rear of the tractor. The two lines from the remote's couplers should lead up to the bucket. One line branches off to the top of each bucket cylinder and other branches off to the bottom of the each bucket cylinder. When you operate the remotes lever the bucket tilt has power both directions.
cvphoto36646.jpg


Joe
 
(quoted from post at 19:37:06 09/16/19) Your loader should have DA bucket cylinders and SA lift cylinders.

Look under the gas tank for the control valves that your Eagle hitch and remotes levers linkages attach. There should be two stacked control valves.

The lower control valve should be operated by the Eagle hitch lever. There is only one line from the SA configured interlock block mounted on the control valve that leads down the right side of the tractor to your diverter valve.
<img src="https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cvphotos/cvphoto36645.jpg">

The diverter valve can select either the Eagle hitch piston or other SA cylinder(s), and only SA cylinders, as there is only one line for supply&return. The Eagle hitch piston is SA and is one selection. The other selection should be the loader lift cylinders, this line from the diverter valve should branch off to the bottom of both loader lift cylinders which should be SA. In your pic there is a line attached to the top of the lift cylinder, that is the rod end and should be open to the atmosphere if the cylinder is SA, find out where that line goes. It is possible that the piston seals leak bye into the rod side and the oil is pushed out the that top line to a jury rig return to the torque tube sump.

When the diverter valve is open to the Eagle hitch piston and you operate the Eagle hitch lever the Eagle hitch piston has power up from the control valve and gravity down as the oil pressure on the piston is returned torque tube sump via the control valve. On the down stroke air is drawn for the rod end of the piston from the top of the transmission. If the transmission is overfull up to the cover there may not be enough free air volume, the piston becomes air bound and draft arms drop slowly or not all the way down.

When the diverter valve is open to the loader lift cylinders and you operate the Eagle hitch lever, the cylinders have power up and gravity down. That is the problem with the line at the top of the cylinder. You need air to enter the rod end to prevent the cylinder from becoming air bound.



The upper control valve should be operated by the remotes lever. There should be two lines from the DA configured interlock mounted on that control valve that lead down the left side of the tractor to the remotes on the left rear of the tractor. The two lines from the remote's couplers should lead up to the bucket. One line branches off to the top of each bucket cylinder and other branches off to the bottom of the each bucket cylinder. When you operate the remotes lever the bucket tilt has power both directions.
<img src="https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cvphotos/cvphoto36646.jpg">

Joe

I see what looks like part of my problem. As you mentioned in your post, I have hard lines running off of the lift cylinder rod side. They are plumbed back into the single action valve. I will grab a picture later to show you. The hard lines on the cylinders do appear factory though. Could it be that this loader was meant for a different tractor that had two dual action valves?

Just to be clear, I have down pressure with the lift cylinders. Not a ton but enough that it begins to lift the front tires. Other than being plumbed incorrectly does that mean the single action valvr may be messed up?
 
Here is the current configuration of the hoses on my loader. Sorry for thr poor drawings over the pictures. But as you can see the top two hard lines run to the rear of the tractor to the remote hookup. Then to the tilt cylinders.

The lower valve ( supposedly the single action valve ) has the single hose on the right going to the body end of the lift cylinders. The rod end of the cylinders then meet at the "T" on the left side of the valve in the picture.

Is it possible to have 2 double action valves? Could someone have changed the single action out so that it had a double action, not knowing they would be causing problems with the eagle hitch???
mvphoto42749.jpg


mvphoto42750.jpg
 
It appears both your control valves are oriented to have the interlock blocks on the right side of the tractor. That's ok , it just crowds every thing together. I don't think there is room under the gas tank to stack another control valve is there?

Yes, you can change a SA interlock block to DA simply by inserting a recessed 1/4" pipe plug in the center port on the side that faces the control valve. I'll show you how that is done but not tonight.

Do you use the Eagle hitch lever (inter) linked to lower control valve for bucket cylinders and the remotes lever (outer) linked to the upper control valve for lift cylinders?

Look closely at both interlock blocks as this pic. The distance from the top front bolt to fitting must be shorter that the same distance of the top back bolt to fitting.

Can yo make a simple line drawing of the systems?

I am pressed for time tonight, back at you tomorrow.

Joe
cvphoto36668.jpg
 

Joe, I will draw something up tonight and post it up. Take a look and let me know what your seeing. I'm wondering if someone switched the SA interlock to a DA interlock not knowing the three point system would work incorrectly. Or if maybe they never used the three point system and decided they would just swap it to DA and forget about it.
 
I am ok with the bucket tilt circuit, don't need drawing for that. Assume you are using remote lever for that and Eagle hitch level for the lift cylinders,

I am pretty sure I understand the lift cylinders circuit that includes the diverter valve also but just rough out a line dwg. Ans the other ? also.

Gotta go.
 

Heres a rough drawing. Sorry I missed the memo about the tilt cylinder circuit. So its all on the drawing.
mvphoto42770.jpg
 
Yes that sketch is fine, I just wanted to see if I was missing something. Right at this point there is no reason the hitch will not raise and lower mode by selecting the hitch piston with the diverter valve.
The problem is with this setup using a DA interlock configuration, the entire time the hitch lever is in the lowering position there will be pump pressure to the down side (top) of the lift cylinders. The Diverter valve will shut off return (bottom) from the lift cylinders so there is no oil circulation and the pump is dead headed on the relief valve.

To understand this we need to know how the interlocks work. The manual has pics of the interlocks as SA & DA in neutral with a brief description but no real operational info. Some time ago I copied pics of the manual's neutral SA & DA and massaged the pics in Paint to show the functions. Not very good but will serve our purpose. I will hunt up the pics and post later, probably tomorrow.

For right now some background. The usual factory hydraulic system for 300, 200B, 300B 400B, and some of the other #00B series tractor as follows.

Hyd pump in the torque tube that runs and pumps all the time the engine is running. The oil just circulates from the sump through neutral stroked control valves, a filter and back to the sump. Mounted on a cover above the pump is the lower control valve with a SA configured interlock block and a single hyd line down the right side of the tractor to the Eagle hitch piston. On top of the lower control valve an identical control valve is mounted upside down with a DA configured interlock and 2 hyd lines down the left side of the tractor to remotes.

As it exists, someone for some reason has pulled and reinstalled the top control valve (or a replacement valve) and mounted it right side up on the lower control valve to have the interlock and hyd lines on the right side of tractor vice the left side. That is operationally ok but inconvenient from a possible repair stand point. May have blocked access to the filter cover which I believe is just aft of those interlocks on the 400B, check that. When you turn over one of these control valves, the spool needs to be rotated 180 deg for linkage fit or the stroke will be limited to some degree, here is a pic, both control valve spool ends should be gap down for pin on the bell crank.
cvphoto36708.jpg


The 291 loader was designed to mount on these tractors using the existing system by little more than adding a diverter valve on the SA circuit and hyd lines. The SA system control was the Eagle hitch lever for the hitch or loader lift cylinders as selected by the diverter valve. The DA system control was the remotes lever for the bucket tilt. The only drawback was no down pressure except that via the bucket tilt.

The interlock's primary purpose is a safety device to maintain a hydraulic lock on the system when the engine is not running to drive the hyd pump for pressure to the interlock spool. If the loader or hitch is in the raised position and being worked on or around and someone moved the lever(s) nothing will happen because the engine is not running and there is no pressure to operate the interlock so the loader or hitch cannot drop possibly causing injury.

I would still like to have this info from yesterday so we will know that the interlocks are bolted on in the right position. They are sometimes bolted upside down which blocks the center hyd port.
Look closely at both interlock blocks as this pic. The distance from the top front bolt to fitting must be shorter that the same distance of the top back bolt to fitting.

Here are a couple interlocks pics.
This one is SA in neutral.
cvphoto36709.jpg


This one is DA showing supply fwd line and return aft line.
Note that port "C" is plugged with a recessed head 1/4" npt plug.
That plug and the extra hyd line is the only difference in SA & DA configuration.
cvphoto36711.jpg


Getting cross-eyed, more tomorrow

Joe
 
Lots of info. Took a few minutes and rereads to let that all sink.

I did look at the the way the interlocks are mounted. It appears that looking at the blocks, the side with the shortest gap between the bolts and hose fitting is on the right. So according to your posts the interlocks are not mounted upside down.

mvphoto42784.jpg


So from my understanding of your posts. The systems should all be working fine based on the way its hosed up.

Below is a picture looked at the back side of the interlock valves from the operators seat.

mvphoto42782.jpg


This is just another picture of the lift cylinders. It appears to me that the metal lines look factory to me.

mvphoto42783.jpg


I must admit that I'm having a hard time understanding what you think is changed about the orientation of the valve/interlocks?
Can the interlocks be mounted to either side? It all looks so factory to me. I think I need to reassemble everything with proper fluid levels and recheck operation of the hydraulic system.

I did order parts from John yesterday. He recommended that I replace the seals in the pto shaft while I have it accessible. So ill be removing my pto system this week in preperation.

I noticed that my pto does shut off correctly. When I engage the lever the pto reacts appropriately and runs. Although when I lower the lever to disengage the pto it continues to run unless I push and hold down on the lever. I'm assuming something is not in adjustment. Is there a brake in the pto system? Thanks
 
Joe, I found am old post you had that had a pdf for the 291b loader parts catalog. I looked at most of it and read the part that states the tractor requirements for the 291b loader..... It reads.." Tractors equipped with Eagle Hitch Hydraulic System require hydraulics with controls for double acting cylinders."

I'm not sure my loader is a 291b because of the fact that I have twin tilt cylinders and the metal lines on the rod side of my lift cylinders. Do you know of any other loaders that might match my loader.
 
First of all I need to correct a mistake I made in the flow direction of The DA interlock pic I posted this morning. The pump pressure enters port "B" pushing the plunger to the left unseating the ball check for return oil via "AA" back to the sump via port "A". The pump pressure port "B" unseats the check ball on the right and passes out via "BB" to a cylinder
cvphoto36725.jpg

cvphoto36726.jpg

The above interlock is shown on the side facing the control valve so the lines appear to be backward. So lets look at your lower control valve/interlock circuit for Eagle hitch/loader lift cylinder operation assuming the diverter valve is in the Eagle hitch select position and the hitch lever is moved to the lowering position. The direction of flow as shown in this DA interlock is correct however the pump pressure "BB" is teed off to lines leading to the top of the lift cylinders, with diverter valve in select hitch piston position return oil from the bottom of the lift cylinder is trapped. The hyd lock oil on the hitch piston is bled off back through "AA" and to the sump via port "A" since the plunger is holding the left check ball off it's seat.

The problem here is that the pump oil discharge/output "BB" to the down pressure (top) side of the lift cylinders, the piston can't move down because the return side oil is trapped by the diverter valve. The pump is dead headed and working against the relief. if in fact the relief opens as it should.

Can you see that?

That's all I am going to do today as I am very tired and making mistakes. I will take care of your questions above tomorrow, Try to find the 291 loader post you referred to and post a link for me. I have a 291B manual here somewhere I'll hunt up. As I remember it there were off-tractor DA cylinders for work from the remotes addressed in the manual but lift cylinders are SA.

Joe
 
"As I remember it there were off-tractor DA cylinders for work from the remotes addressed in the manual but lift cylinders are SA."

Joe, I can confirm that, I have the parts manual for it (I may have made the .pdf) and I'm sure my loader is a 291b. And yes, it has SA lift cylinders. The tilt cylinder simply plugs into the remotes at the back of the tractor. There is only one tilt cylinder and the center brace it connects to is much smaller than Adam's, it's a piece of 4" box, originally 1/8" thick (I had to replace it with 1/4"). So I'm thinking someone took a donor tractor, removed everything from it that was loader-related and installed it on the 411b, and did a bang-up job, except that when the diverter is in Eagle hitch position and raising we're sucking oil from the top of the lift cylinders--or air through the piston seals; and when trying to lower the Eagle hitch we're pressurizing those upper lift hoses--and deadheading that pressure through the cylinders and against the diverter valve. No wonder it leaks!
 
Alright guys, so whats the easiest way to address my issues. Should I pull the rod end hoses off of the lift cylinders and see if the seals in the cylinder leak? If they don't ill just install a breather. If they do leak I can run those hoses back to the sump via the fill plug port. And the. Ill have that interlock back to normal where it shouldnbe working for the eagle hitch correct? Or am I still going to need to reconfigure the interlock? I'm not totally sure its setup for da. It may have just been my imagination that the boom had down pressure.
 
I have no experience with converting a cylinder DA to SA , don't know of any reason you can't do it.
You could try it. You would get quite a bit of oil out of the rod side of the cylinders before they clean up even if the piston seals don't leak.

Before you do anything, tilt your bucket down to take some of the front weight of the tractor and see how high the lift cylinders will raise the tractor front, should easily lift until the rods bottoms out. Put something under the bucket if you need to get some rod length exposed to start the lift. Also try to get an idea how strong the hydraulics are for lifting weight as opposed to down pressure. We are doing this just to get an idea if you have a weak pump they actually installed a plug in port "C" to make it true DA. People who don't know the factory orientation of the control valve/interlocks probably don't know a SA interlock from a DA.

This is how a SA interlock functions:
EH lever in raise position pump pressure enters port "A" unseats ball check and continuses to EH piston.
cvphoto36826.jpg


EH lever back to neutral, pump pressure circulates within control valve back to sump via filter. Ball check is seated trapping oil between the ball and EH piston, hydraulic lock.
cvphoto36827.jpg


EH lever to lowering. Pump pressure to port "B". Plunger unseats ball check, partially uncovers port "C" to provide a recirc path for pump so it doesn't deadhead in relief. Hyd lock is released on EH piston, oil returns to sump via port "A" and filter. Hitch arms drop by gravity. The number of copper gaskets under the left end cap determines the tension of the ball spring and in turn the pump pressure required to uncover any given width of port "C". It is also possible to shim the spring under the cap to increase spring tension. Due to the limited exposed plunger surface area it takes quite a bit of pump pressure to overcome the check ball spring tension. In your case, the extent that port "C" is uncovered will have a direct bearing on pump pressure to your lift cylinders' for down pressure..
cvphoto36828.jpg


If you need to pull the interlock block to check for the plug, you already know how clean the area needs to be before you unbolt. A big advantage of having the interlock blocks and lines on separate sides of the tractor is access to clean up and do repairs. Look at the pic of my SA interlock, I don't have the line on it now because don't use the hitch on this tractor.

Think about it, do you have enough time to spend on this in view other repairs in progress and anything else that might pop up to get up and running in time for your firewood work? Right at this point the loader works, do you plan to use the hitch in the near future?

I'll try to answer the leftover questions in this thread tomorrow plus any new one that are relative but when you start on the PTO project start a new post so it might attract more people that may have other and/or better solutions. The fact is the longer the post and more complicated it becomes the less people will read it and become involved, largely because of individual time available to spend here.

On the PTO removal first thing is get some long bolts cut off heads, studs, or all-thread 7 - 8" or so long to guide and help support the PTO unit weight.

Joe

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Tonight I put some more fluid in the torque tube and fired it up. Well, I tried to start it. The starter hasnt worked well since I bought it. So tonight I took it off pulled it apart and cleaned it. It was water soaked inside. And rusty. Cleaned it and reassembled and its working fantastic now.

So anyway... I put more fluid in the torque tube and tried the loader out quick. The tilt cylinder easily lifts the tractor off of the ground, quickly and with alot of power. As for the lift cylinders, it doesnt have much down pressure. It begins to take the weight off of tires and thats it. I dont think that interlock is set up for da. I think I'm going to remove the rod side lift cylinder hoses when I have all of my transmission/eagle hitch repairs made.

If they dont leak aftet they clear themselves out ill just make breathers. If they do ill just rebuild the cylinders. And then my eagle hitch should work correctly.
 

I started another topic about the pto assembly.

Do you have any tricks or tips for getting the sealing ring on the eagle hitch piston?

The housing is scarred some. It has lines scored in it from what I assume was dirt caught in the seals. At what point do you decide its junk? I feel like the seal will work good for a while but could eventually wear it prematurely.

Can I ball hone it or something. I obviously cant go to crazy because its not like I can buy oversized seals or something.
 
I haven't done that wide band type seal on the EH piston, mine have all been a narrow band with o-rings and steel ring with o-ring. There is about 5 different types of pistons/seals.

Make that a separate post you'll get some responses, there are many guys here that have experience and different solutions for installing that wide seal including John Saeli. I know Kevin has honed his cylinder, he may chime in on a new post also others have had scored cylinders. I personally don't like ball hones.

Might be a good idea to check your TT sump oil filters, there is one in front of the radiator and may be one just aft of your hyd control valves with a 4 bolt cover. Your hyd system for loader/EH and COM share the oil sump in the TT. Filter is the cleanable edge wound element that are still available. Also Wix (Napa) makes a paper disposable filter that is a suitable substitute but it will need to be changed more often. I have used them to clean up a system and then go back to the original. I'll hunt up the Wix p/n if you want to go with the Wix.

I am going to wrap up our last post that has some questions that haven't been addressed yet tonight or tomorrow.

Joe
 
I'm with Joe, ball hones tend to make a wavy cylinder wall, use a 3 or 4-stone hone and lots of in-and-out movement, ideally about a 30 degree angle to the crosshatch pattern. Just how deep are your scores? More than just a very slight click as your fingernail goes over it, or if you can get shavings off your fingernail, it will just cut up the brand-new seal and you'll be doing the job all over again. I didn't enjoy it all that much, how about you? The good news is that, unlike a combustion engine, you don't have combustion temps to deal with, so small scores can be filled with JB Weld. Make sure the score is completely clean and dry though! I use spray brake cleaner and compressed air. Then sand it smooth before honing. Installing the new seal on the piston can be a bear. Soak it in soapy water as hot as you can stand to touch and warm the piston too, stretch the seal over the piston and work it down to the groove. Mine turned sideways as it fell into the groove but I was able to straighten it out with a flat-blade screwdriver. Remember sharp edge toward the pressure!! Slime up both cylinder and piston before poking the piston back in. You don't really have room for a ring compressor, but there's a pretty good chamfer, I used the wood handle of a 20 oz hammer to tap it in.

cvphoto36904.jpg
 

Tractor is back together. I left the eagle hitch hydraulic line unhooked so that I can monitor the final drive oil level for a while. Just want to make sure I don't have any other leaks transfering trans fluid to the gear box and final drive. When I feel comfortable that I havr no leaks ill hook up the eagle hitch and monitor again for leaks.

All functions seem ok so far. Although I have noticed that when I lower the boom at idle it shutters. Increased throttle and the boom does not shutter when going down. So maybe that interlock is messed up still?
 
You'll detect oil transfer quicker by checking the TT dipstick as the TT capacity is ~4 gals as opposed to transmission ~7 gals. Axles are partially flooded when oil is at the full mark on the transmission dipstick. Any oil added at this point is filling the axle voids as well as the transmission so a slow level rise on the dipstick for the larger volume area. Proper measurement is with dipstick screwed in fully but it is more accurate to seat the plug end and added the screw length mentally. Dry the dipstick and rub chalk on it for an a better defined oil level.

Loader shutter issue has nothing to do with interlock malfunction. It is very common on both DA & SA lift cylinders on many brands of loaders in this era. On a DA cylinder oil pressure is dropping faster on the piston side then can be made up on the rod side so when you speed up the pump the pressure on the rod side catches up and the drop smoothes out only momentarily. As oil temperature rises surge will become more prevalent and pronounced to the point that a rpm increase has no affect.

The fix is to slow down the loader drop. There are both fixed and adjustable flow controls that can be installed in the oil lines to dampen/eliminate the surge or you can try to feather the control lever slowly but this particular linkage has so much built in slop, and the control valve spool tends to move to the full detent, that is very difficult. I have Davis loaders on my 310 and 311B, all cylinders being DA. I use one control valve w/DA interlock tied down full stroke for supply and return to a 2-spool directional control valve manifold that is easy to throttle/control flow with the levers.

There are several unanswered questions left over in this thread. If you want me or others to address any let us know which one(s).

Joe

cvphoto37302.jpg
 

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