Case 411b transmission

Mgeez

New User
I have owned a 411B for 30 years. I truly love this older tractor and it has been very good to me. I have a re-curring problem that I finally figured I would post about. The "case-o-matic" kinda stops working correctly for me. Maybe someone on this thread can help me out. Every time the transmission stops working correctly it is almost impossible to get it in gear. even lowering the rpm's to minimum still almost impossible to get in gear or even shift quickly to another gear. I sometimes have to shut off the tractor, put it in gear and then start up. The strange fix that I found to correct this problem is as follows: I disconnect the hydraulic line in the front left corner of the forward compartment. I think its the oil line that goes into the btm of the radiator oil cooling section. I inject 120 psi compressed air into this line and quickly release the pressure. once pressure is released and oil flys out everywhere, I re-connect the line and the darn transmission works perfectly for maybe an hr or 2. When my case-o-matic pressure gage did work, the gage read normal, but when the tranny acted up it read zero. Once I did the pressure injection into that line, the gage would read normal. What is causing the system to loose pressure, then regain its operating pressure after I pressurize the lines? Any thoughts?
Mark
 
I found that oil filter years ago. I really was excited that I thought that was the problem. I actually removed the filter core insert, which is in the right corner, just front of the radiator, and I still had the problem. To this day, there is no filter in the hyd loop. Yes, I know........
I have been injecting 120 psi for the past 20 years. Why does that temporarily correct the pressure problem. Unless I do that, The tractor is useless. I really am contemplating doing a complete hyd system teardown. But I thought I would post here to get some opinions.
 
I would check a couple of things before taking everything apart. First off, does the direct drive lever move back up to the top of dash when you depress the foot pedal. There is a tab on the inching spool that moves the lever back to converter drive position any time the pedal is pushed??? Does the pedal move the spool the full stroke when pushed and released. If those mechanicals are all OK, then take off the COM control valve, and give it a thorough cleaning, and install a working pressure gauge. If pressure is 0 with pedal depressed, and up in the 200# range with pedal up, You should be good to go. The only other thing that I can think of is the piston for the direct drive or the clutch discs themselves, are hanging up on, or in, the hub or drum, which would require removing the COM from the tractor.-----Loren
 

I had the same trouble with a 411B I had owned. It turned out to be a plugged oil cooler in the radiator. Take both hoses, one in and one out of the radiator, and back flush the cooler until you get a good flow through the cooler. Replace the C-O-M filter. If you don't have type A automatic transmission oil in the torque tube now would be the time to make the switch.
 
Might or might not make a difference, but you should have another filter below the hydraulic control valve, on the right side of the tractor. Look for a triangular cover. Takes the same filter and O-ring as the other one. I suspect it only affects the hydraulics though, not the COM. But even so. When I replaced mine a year or two ago, it simply disintegrated.
 
No filter for years? Was told by old school case mechanic c.o.m. Are durable but key to long life CLEAN OIL
 
Thanks Loren for your replies. Yes the Direct Drive lever works correctly, as does the DD when I have COM pressure.Yes the spool move according to the pedal travel. I do not know what or where the COM control valve is. Another quirky operational thing started happening last week. When depressing the COM pedal in, the tractor kept pulling at higher than average RPM's. I could stop with full brakes, but this is a new development compared to the last 25 years. But, like I said before, Once I add the 120 psi pressure to that hyd line, the COM performs as as good as new. One other thing. the first time I shoot the 125 psi in, there is a 2-3 second squeel. hmmm. The 2nd time i hit it with pressure ll is quiet. L.Fure has a good idea to backflush the oil cooler section of the radiator. The squeel could be trapped dirt backflushing back into the cooler. Thanks for your replies.
 
Wow! Hope you are right. I have never noticed another filter other than the engine oil, Air, and the COM filter. I will definitely look tonight.
Thanks Kevin.
 
I just knew a "no filter" reply was coming! I have only 1 excuse. LAZY. I remember the day i realized there was a filter in the COM system. When I removed it, I was 100% sure it was the problem. After several hours of plowing that afternoon the COM pressure dropped. Honestly, I sorta forgot about replacing the filter. The dealer was 1.5 hrs away and the online ordering revolution hadn't appeared yet. Still, no excuse.....just, LAZY. BTW, I just ordered one!
Mark
 
I was wrong, it's a 4-bolt cover not 3, I don't have a good pic but here is a manual page scan that should give you an idea:

cvphoto34004.jpg


Mine is covered by a diverter valve for the loader so I never get a pic. But again, AFAIK that filter is just for the hydraulics, Eagle hitch, remotes, loader etc.
 
Thanks for the illustration, much appreciated. This might be a dumb question, but, Is the 411b considered a 400 series case?
Mark
 
(quoted from post at 14:40:04 08/20/19) Thanks for the illustration, much appreciated. This might be a dumb question, but, Is the 411b considered a 400 series case?
Mark

The 411B is in the 400B series which includes 410B and the 411B wfe & nfe built in 1958 & 59. The 400 tractor built 1956 & 57 is a larger tractor.

Joe
 
The "B" series are different. B stands for Brow, the eyebrow over the headlights. Also called a square nose. But yes, the manual for yours will say 400b on it, and probably cover others. The one for my 611b covers 500b and 600b.
 
Looked b4 I went to work. Yes. Found the 4 bolt filter canister on rt side. Do you know if this filter is for the COM? I thought the front filter canister filters the COM.
 
I just received the repair manual yesterday. I am reading it now. I did "limp" along drilling my pasture post holes. I have a "gut" feeling something is getting hung up in the pump valving.
 
(quoted from post at 19:07:08 08/27/19) I just received the repair manual yesterday. I am reading it now. I did "limp" along drilling my pasture post holes. I have a "gut" feeling something is getting hung up in the pump valving.

Be you start taking things apart you should make sure the flow of oil is getting through the system. Then check the pressures as the manual covers. That's how I found the blockage in the cooler at the bottom of the radiator. Had good oil flow going to the cooler, but very little coming out. I felt lucky to not have something more seriously wrong with the C-O-M.
 
Mgeez i have question for you where the torque converter is and clutch is there supposed to be hyd fluid in that area i bought a 410b in August of last year just rebuilt the engine put back together it is leaking hyd fluid out at the bottom is there a seal in the clutch to keeping it from leaking or is there level of hyd fluid in that area
 
(reply to post at 13:27:06 08/19/19)
(1) the cooler is in the high pressure loop so it runs well over 100 lbs normal operation so I do not think that 120 lbs will damage it unless it is badly pitted or eroded,

(2) the control valve contains a pressure regulator that sets up system pressure and I have seen the spool valve get hung up on rough spots that develop in the bore, it is located below and centered between the two spools on the control valve. The valve will have to be removed to get a proper view of that.

(3) The pump has a cold oil relief screwed into it to dump oil in excessively cold temperatures. There was a design change on them back in the day where the old style ball and spring type was removed and a new design was installed.

(4) When the pedal is depressed the oil to the clutch is dumped to allow shifting, when this happens the pressure on the gauge will drop down to slightly below 1/4 of the gauge scale, 0 psi means something is not right, at that point you are reading converter charge pressure, at this point the converter charge pressure is applied behind the multi disc pressure piston to retract the pressure plate so minimal gear clash is experienced. Your air pressure is what is causing the clutch piston to retract. In my opinion the pressure regulation system in your TC circuit is at fault. The curved big pipe up out of the top plate is pump supply, take note to which pipe you are supplying pressure to that causes the pipe to sing, if applying pressure to the pump pipe causes that possibly the cold oil relief is the issue, normally they are set well above system pressure but if failed they could be all over the map. Get us as much info as you can, there are a couple of us on the forum that can help you out, OH by the way, get filter in it rite now, you are working with parts that are made of unobtanium. I just welded up a worn shaft for the TC PTO shaft feed and cut the sealing hook seal groove back into it.
 
(quoted from post at 05:01:15 06/24/20)
(reply to post at 13:27:06 08/19/19)
the two pipes one would the suction other would be return back to the reserveror what i was after was is there any seals in the clutch that would leak into where the convertor is as i might have to split the tractor again to fix or this is normal
 
Neither, the pipe that goes straight down into the cap, comes up and curves front is the pump outlet pressure line which goes front to the cooler and filter, the other pipe comes straight back to the control valve and feeds the valve which contains main relief, the fitting there has the TC gauge connection on the rear of the tee, , there is also another valve we have not talked about and that is the little valve on the top cap next to the main control valve, it's purpose is to set the TC pressure, a low pressure control valve in the 30- 40 LB range or close to there. In my opinion I would look for a main relief sticky regulator spool or quite possibly the cold oil relief cartridge could have failed. There is really no way to ascertain if TC wear is the problem without opening it up so I would look at pressure till I eliminated that as the cause.
 
(quoted from post at 08:11:13 06/24/20) Neither, the pipe that goes straight down into the cap, comes up and curves front is the pump outlet pressure line which goes front to the cooler and filter, the other pipe comes straight back to the control valve and feeds the valve which contains main relief, the fitting there has the TC gauge connection on the rear of the tee, , there is also another valve we have not talked about and that is the little valve on the top cap next to the main control valve, it's purpose is to set the TC pressure, a low pressure control valve in the 30- 40 LB range or close to there. In my opinion I would look for a main relief sticky regulator spool or quite possibly the cold oil relief cartridge could have failed. There is really no way to ascertain if TC wear is the problem without opening it up so I would look at pressure till I eliminated that as the cause.
got a new gauge for the t/c with the pedal pushed i get 50 psi when i release it goes to 110psi i am still getting hyd into the bellhousing where do you think that is coming from
 
TCH in the bell housing? That housing is wet, the TC has normal leakage and the flywheel slings oil into a return troth cast into the bell housing. Even the starter is special and is built with a seal and housing gasket. The housing is essentially open clear through from the engine to the 4 speed housing which is sealed and uses 90 weight oil. Leakage can happen if the bell housing gasket has failed or if someone has not properly sealed the rear casting below the oil pan and bolted to the bell housing.
 
(quoted from post at 20:28:24 06/26/20) TCH in the bell housing? That housing is wet, the TC has normal leakage and the flywheel slings oil into a return troth cast into the bell housing. Even the starter is special and is built with a seal and housing gasket. The housing is essentially open clear through from the engine to the 4 speed housing which is sealed and uses 90 weight oil. Leakage can happen if the bell housing gasket has failed or if someone has not properly sealed the rear casting below the oil pan and bolted to the bell housing.
hanks for the info that is what i was looking for now i dont have to spilt the tractor apart again just fix my screwup on the mount and thank you
 

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