210B hard starting.

Stephen Newell · Nov 21, 2018

This has been a problem ever since I've had the tractor. The wiring has been changed. The battery has been changed. The starter has been overhauled but it frequently has spells where the engine will barely turn over. This is especially the case if the engine has been running and warmed up. Any time I use the tractor I have to leave it running until I completely get done. If I turn it off I have to wait 30 minutes to an hour before I attempt to start it again. It cranks as though the battery is nearly dead. Then wait 15-20 minutes and it starts fine. Any idea what I can do to reduce the friction in the engine so the starter can turn it?

old · Nov 21, 2018

Gas or diesel?? If gas the timing could be advanced to much which will cause a problem when warm. Also check all battery cable connections and make sure there clean tight and bright and also the ground needs to be on the frame or even batter a starter bolt instead of sheet metal

Stephen Newell · Nov 22, 2018

It's gas. The only thing that hasn't been worked on is the timing. Everything else you have suggested has been done. I just assumed the engine was tight. When working on it once I tried to rotate the engine by hand and I thought I was going to break my 24" breaker bar before I could move it and yet it's made to where if you have the tool you are suppose to be able to hand crank it to start it. Not a chance.

Junksorter · Nov 22, 2018

The engine should be easily turned with a 24" breaker bar. I'm assuming you were trying to manually turn the engine with the breaker bar during a period when the engine was warm and unable to crank. With the ignition off, coil wire removed, transmission in neutral, fan belt tension loosened and belt pulley/PTO disengaged, try manually rotating the engine. If no movement is seen from the transmission/wheels, PTO or belt pulley and the engine is still hard to turn, check the engine oil and filter media for metal debris. It sounds like the engine maybe trying seize. Also if the engine is seizing, very little to no play should be felt while trying to rotate the engine from one direction to another. If the problem is elsewhere, some play may be felt due to gear backlash and clutch spline tolerances. If all of the above possibilities are ruled out and the engine is still stiff, there maybe crankshaft, rod or piston damage. Does the tractor have a working temperature gauge? Pistons can seize to the cylinder walls if overheated. It is hard to imagine an engine being able to survive this for long though. Hope this helps and let us know what you find, Tim

Stephen Newell · Nov 22, 2018

While I didn't loosen the fan belt, the only way the engine could be hand cranked is with all the spark plugs removed. I have before checked the engine oil for metal however I have never had the pan off so I don't know if it has a magnet in the pan or not. It doesn't have a PTO and the clutch has been recently been replaced so I don't think it's failing to disengage. Anyway the tractor was hard starting before and after the clutch change.

The temperature gauge I'm not certain if it's working right or not. It was replaced with an aftermarket gauge and I have my doubts about it's accuracy. Not long ago I had a issue with work truck where I bought a non-contact thermometer to check the engine temperature but it was terribly inaccurate so it went back to the store the next day and I haven't had a chance to get another one.

I've had the tractor for nine years and did a partial restoration about five years ago but I did nothing to the engine. Since the restoration I've put 175 hours on the tractor and it doesn't work any better or worse in that time.

old · Nov 22, 2018

Do you have good oil pressure when running?? Is the cooling system working correctly and not over heating?? Either one of those can cause that problem also. I'd pull the valve cover and make sure oil is getting to the top of the engine and also I would check oil flow by unhooking the oil pressure gauge and make sure you have oil there when you crank it

Adirondack case guy · Nov 22, 2018

You mentioned a clutch job. Did you get the splinned hollow shaft properly engaged into the pressure plate cover??? If you drew the motor tight to the bell housing, with bolts you may have bent in the cover and the shaft is applying pressure on the thrust bearings on the crankshaft, and back pressure on the shaft and rear components also.
Loren

Stephen Newell · Nov 22, 2018

When I split the tractor I bought an alignment tool and everything easily slid together so I don't think there is an issue there. In any case the hard starting works the same before and after the clutch job. It's just weird, if the tractor has sat overnight regardless if it's 20 degrees or 90 degrees outdoors the engine cranks easily just like it should. It's after it has run for a while it really acts up. The longer it sits after it has been used the easier it is to start. Still if it cranks for more than 30 seconds without starting it will just quit. After that it's like the battery is nearly dead. At one time I thought the battery was the problem however it doesn't even help to jump it off of a running vehicle.

Adirondack case guy · Nov 22, 2018

A clutch disc alignment tool has no affect on the pressure plate cover and the hollow splined shaft that engages the cover. The male and female splines have to be properly aligned, or if motor and bell housing are drawn together with bolts, the cover collapses. If the engine slid back tight to the bell housing without using bolts disregard what I am referring to.
Loren

kevinthefixer · Nov 22, 2018

In any case, if the motor spins well with the spark plugs removed, you do not need to look at the clutch or crankshaft or such. Ignition timing is a real good place to start, if it's too far advanced it will try to push the piston back down before it gets to the top. If the advance mechanism in the distributor is stuck, or the springs are stretched, the timing at low RPM will be advanced too much, so I'd start by popping the distributor cap and making sure I can turn the rotor forward about 15 degrees or so and have it snap back when I let go. If not, fix that and then proceed to set timing by the manual.

Stephen Newell · Nov 22, 2018

The engine did slide back together very easy. That part of the project couldn't have gone easier.

Stephen Newell · Nov 22, 2018

According to the gauge the oil pressure is good and it's not overheating. Most of the time I experience the hard starting problem after just a few minutes use, long before it could get hot enough to be that issue. Tomorrow I will try to remove the oil pressure gauge and see about the oil when cranked.

Stephen Newell · Nov 22, 2018

Thanks, I will give that a try and see what happens.

Junksorter · Nov 23, 2018

I hope everyone had a good thanksgiving! Stephen, if you are still having problems with the engine then let's go back to one of your earlier entry's. I'm assuming the ignition was disabled when you unsuccessfully tried to rotate the engine with a 24" breaker bar. If the ignition is disabled and the engine is still hard to turn, whether by hand or by the starter motor, then the ignition timing is not the problem. During a period of difficult cranking, ground the coil wire by removing it from the center of the distributor cap and attaching it to somewhere on the engine block. If the engine now cranks over much easier then do as Kevin has said and investigate the distributor mechanical advance and the setting of the base timing. If the engine does not crank over any better with the ignition disabled, then check for end play in the crankshaft. At some point on the engine, probably the crank pulley, you should be able to see a small amount of movement. Be careful what you are prying against as this should not require much effort. Using a pry bar and some finesse, try moving the crank front to rear in block. With little effort, you should see some movement. The movement should be visible to the naked eye without a dial indicator. Have someone what watch or pry for you if needed. If no movement can be found, then there could be a problem in the area of the clutch or the main bearings.

Stephen Newell · Nov 23, 2018

Today I attempted to adjust the timing using a timing light and the closer I got to having it right the worse it ran. A couple of times it was running so badly with the timing set right I thought it was going to stall so I backed off a little and tightened it down. So far today I started the tractor eight or ten times and it seems to have fixed the hard starting problem but only time will tell if the problem is truly fixed. I think before I set the timing with a light and it didn't like it so I had it adjusted to where the motor seem to run better. I guess I had it adjusted too advanced. The engine is probably still too stiff since it is so hard to rotate it by hand but at the moment I'm not interested in tearing into the engine. I just lost a months work in October overhauling the engine in my work van. I thank everyone for their help.

kevinthefixer · Nov 23, 2018

Stephen, I gotta say, that makes it sound more and more like the advance system (centrifugal?) is seized up. It is either hard to start or, if you have it set to start easily, it won't have as much power at working rpm and may overheat unless your cooling system is spot-on. Did you check that?

Stephen Newell · Nov 23, 2018

I don't understand this statement "I gotta say, that makes it sound more and more like the advance system (centrifugal?) is seized up". There isn't a problem with the cooling system, it's working fine although I didn't actually use the tractor today after I made adjustments on the timing. I just started it a number of times and turned it off. It never failed to start.

Joe (Wa) · Nov 23, 2018

I don't know that the timing is your whole starting problem but Kevin has a valid point that very advanced timing will impede starting. Advanced timing should never be used to smooth out the idle on an engine, that is the function of the carburetor if the engine is in decent shape I.E. valves not leaking, gaskets tight, etc.

As much problems as you seem to be having with your tractor, you should be starting back at square one in my opinion.

Check that your distributor advance is working properly as someone pointed out how to do that. Do a static ignition timing to get the distributer in time with the flywheel mark which I believe is TDC, as opposed to BTDC, on that engine. Start the engine, adjust the carburetor for relatively smooth idle generally between 400-550 rpm but no higher. If you have the factory distributer it is designed to start the advance above 550 but lower than 600 rpm. If you check the distributer advance free and do a correct static timing, timing will have zero involvement with any idle problems. Too rough idle, check out your carburetor/fuel system, if ok, time to look into the engine, valve lash, compression check, etc. Has your fuel system been modified from factory, maybe subject to vapor lock?

Joe

Stephen Newell · Nov 24, 2018

Yesterday morning I attempted to set the timing with a timing light and when I got it perfectly aliened it very nearly stalled. I had to back it off to where it lacked about 1/2" from being on the mark.

A lot of what you are saying is over my head. Nothing has been done to the carburetor since I've had it and I have no idea if it has been modified. I'm pretty well reluctant to tamper with the carburetor. I've had a jeep broke down for the last two years because I overhauled it. I even took it to a mechanic and he put parts in it that didn't belong. There is just nobody in my area anymore that works on tractors so I would be risking a lot to tinker with the carburetor. I believe I would have to load it on a trailer first.

The only issue I know of with the carburetor is if you don't turn the gas off when you get done with the tractor it will flood the carburetor.

I will see if I can get some pictures of the carburetor this morning when the sun comes up.

kevinthefixer · Nov 24, 2018

Joe's got a point, start at #1--set up the distributor, points and timing first, then adjust the carb. Just had a thought, though, you said you recently put a clutch in it--is it possible on that motor to install the flywheel one bolt off? If so your timing mark may not be valid. Pull #1 plug, bring the piston up top, is your timing mark near TDC? But anyway, you're not going to hurt your machine adjusting your carb by the book. Taking it apart is another story and best left to someone familiar with carbs, and it sounds like your auto mechanic isn't. But there is a reason the carb adjustment procedures are in the operator's manual instead of the shop repair manual. FWIW: timing too far advanced = hard starting and pinging; timing too retarded = lack of power and overheating. Possibly even if your cooling system has nothing wrong with it.

Stephen Newell · Nov 24, 2018

I don't believe there is any adjustment on the flywheel. I think it just bolts on the crank with four studs. When I put it back on I brought the #1 piston up to top dead center and aliened the flywheel with the timing mark.

My town has a number of automotive mechanics but only one I halfway trust. You don't take a vehicle to him with any kind of electronic problem but I sure thought he could handle a carburetor. After I brought the jeep home it still wasn't running very good so I took the carb back apart. Underneath the metering rod I found a little piece of brass and a ball bearing that didn't belong there.

kevinthefixer · Nov 24, 2018

Very few mechanics these days know a carburetor from a carbohydrate. It's been a quarter-century or better since cars had carbs, we old carb men are mostly retired or about to. And we're all old.

Joe (Wa) · Nov 24, 2018

The flywheel bolt holes are indexed, it will only mount and bolt up in one position.

Most 200B have the Marvel Schebler TSX-635 carburetor, a good soak/cleaning with an basic or intermediate kit is generally all that is required to get it operational.

Joe

http://www.carburetor blog.com/manuals/dltx_tsc_manual.pdf

Stephen Newell · Nov 25, 2018

In hindsight the only problem the carb had was the float was out of adjustment. When sitting at a long traffic light or stuck in traffic the carb would flood. Easy fix but at the time I didn't know it.

Stephen Newell · Nov 25, 2018

I could take the carb apart and clean it but if there was anything to adjust I would be lost.

Joe (Wa) · Nov 25, 2018

Read that manual I posted a link. One of the pages has the info in my 1st pic.

The 2nd pic is how to set the float height at 1/4" above the bowl gasket. Both floats must be same height and parallel with the bowl gasket.

Try to soak and use air pressure to blow out the passages. Replace the throttle shaft seal if it is even a bit sloppy. Replace the shaft if worn in way of the seal.

3rd pic is the main nozzle. The small holes in the side sometime get restricted with debris and/or shellac. Right below the nozzle is the main jet. You can usually soak and blow free w/o pulling the nozzle. The nozzle threads in 2 different places and the main jet is very easily damaged if removal is tried, even the wrong size screwdriver blade can ruin the orifice. Best to leave that to experienced person.

Joe

Joe

kevinthefixer · Nov 26, 2018

Couple added notes: figure out which type of idle adjustment you have by the note in Joe's pic. The air-adjustment type makes the idle mix richer as you screw it in (clockwise); the fuel-adjustment leans it out. When I clamp one in a vice, I screw a couple bolts into the flange and clamp on them, prevents any warping. Be very careful when reinstalling the main mixture needle, when I first got mine they'd missed the jet at the bottom of the carb so the needle wasn't even in its hole--so it was full-on rich all the time. Do we have any indication that you need to tear down the carb? Looks like all you need is a bit of tweaking from outside, as long as your flooding issue is fixed.

Stephen Newell · Nov 26, 2018

I believe the only reason to work on the carb is the needle valve. If you leave the gas turned on the carb will flood.

Stephen Newell · Nov 26, 2018

I printed the instructions and the pictures. If I get up the nerve I might give it a try. I have to say after tearing up my jeep for the last two years with a carb rebuild I'm pretty apprehensive in working on the carb. The jeep kit came with instructions too but it didn't help. In any case I have come down with the flu and don't know when I might try it.

210B hard starting.

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