1964 Case 440 - Ran Rough After Sitting

My ‘64 Case 440 is giving me fits again... The tractor sat for a few weeks and when I started it, it chugged at all RPMs with low power and poured black smoke. I shut it down and when I tried to restart it, the battery couldn’t turn it over. So I charged the battery until it would start. Then it ran great.

After that, the tractor sat one week and when I started it, it chugged at all RPMs with low power and poured black smoke. I had to rake in front of the loafing shed and get the tractor out of the pasture. I unchained the rake and shut it down. Then I restarted it and it only chugged at idle. When the throttle was higher than idle, it smoothed out. So I parked it and checked the battery. I put my Battery Minder charger on it for a 2A charge and desulfurization for 24 hours. It started out as weak and when I checked it after 24 hours, it was strong.

I got it ready to start, went from Reverse to Start and BZZZZZZZ SNAP! Definitely electrical zap and a pop. It wouldn’t turn over the engine. I’ve tried multiple times and it strains like the flywheel is stuck. The starter is engaging, it just won’t turn over.

I’ve had this thing act like the flywheel is stuck before, but just let it sit for a bit and it finally started.

Any ideas of what I have going on here? Will a weak battery cause this thing to run rough? Should I put a breaker bar on the crank and manually turn over the engine, then try starting it? Bad starter? Bad solenoid?

Sounds like starter or solenoid or both. Time to do some serious troubleshooting, not just shooting in the dark. Charge up a known good battery, remove the one you have. Use a heavy set of jumpers to energize the (disconnected) starter, will it turn over now? Pull the spark plugs out, your motor may be hydrolocked, and have a fire extinguisher handy. If you have a cylinder full of gasoline and it comes shooting out of the cylinder and you have a spark anywhere, that's no longer a tractor, it's a flamethrower. Don't assume just one problem! When I got my 611b, it had a bad solenoid, but I thought to check the keyswitch--yup, start terminal shorted to battery. Later I found a Bendix gear, or half of one, in the bottom of the torque tube.

I forgot to mention, when it was chugging black smoke while running rough, at the idle speed, it sounded like something was grinding or whining or both and it definitely wanted to stall.

Also, I forgot to mention that I did forget to turn off the inline fuel shutoff I installed between the gas tank and the carb. So when I tried to turn it over yesterday, it had sat for 24 hours with the fuel shutoff in the ON position. (When I rebuilt my MS carb, I used a set of digital calipers to measure the 1/4" float level and I know it's on the money. Regardless of float level setting, I cannot get it to overcome the gravity feed of the gas, that's why I installed the inline shutoff valve. I tore that carb down multiple times to get the thing to stop flooding with fuel and finally resorted to the inline shutoff valve. I had to put the original valve and seat back into the car because the aftermarket one wouldn't seal at all.) With this being the case, should I start off by draining the gas out of the choke intake, then pull the plugs and turn it over by hand?

I know the battery that's in it is a good battery. It's new as of this spring. It currently has a full charge. I assume a bad generator would drain a battery similar to a bad alternator?

I've sourced a starter and solenoid for the tractor and it appears to be somewhat of an expensive part. It looks just like the starter I had to change in my 1986 F250 diesel. I wound up replacing my F250's starter with a gear reduction starter and it saved on the draw when starting. IIRC, I diagnosed the bad solenoid by jumping the positive to negative terminal on the solenoid. When jumped, it worked, but when gone through the ignition, it didn't. After replacing the solenoid, I got a few dozen starts and then the starter went.

Loosen the starter bolts and move the starter to make sure it isn't locked in the ring gear. Float in the carb. could be bent and hitting on
the sides of the fuel bowl and not raising to shut the needle off.

I pulled the starter and it seemed free. I did try to engage the starter while disconnected, but it wouldn’t crank at all, not even a click from the relay. I left it hooked up to the battery and coil. The wiring has splits/cracks all over. I bolted it all up and it did the click again. I jumpered the contacts and it just went click.

My wiring is done for sure. Brillman Company kit?

I’m going to bring a fresh battery over to the starter and direct connect to see if I can get it to turn over and report back.

Single click with a direct wired fresh battery. Sounds like a bad solenoid too? Brillman for that too?

What happens when you go directly to the starter? Make sure you're in neutral!

single click was directly from a fresh battery on the ground to the starter solenoid. Click.

What I meant was, never mind the solenoid, connect directly to the starter motor. Does it spark? Spin? Growl?

With the overflowing carb, try using a steel float needle instead of a neoprene tipped needle in a new seat if you can find one. Drop the needle down in the seat and give it a couple little taps with a small hammer to seat it in. If it still drips, take it apart and give it a couple more taps.

I didn't bypass the solenoid completely and direct wire to the starter itself. I figured diagnosing the solenoid was good enough, but now that you mention it, ruling out an additional issue would be ideal as well...

Brillman has a starter solenoid with a "manual push button" on it. So, I can't post a link to this part, per forum rules... It's P/N: B5007-010... Does this mean you can simply push the rubber covered black button on the solenoid to start the tractor in lieu of throwing the shifter from Reverse to Start to start the tractor?

(quoted from post at 21:38:22 11/18/18) With the overflowing carb, try using a steel float needle instead of a neoprene tipped needle in a new seat if you can find one. Drop the needle down in the seat and give it a couple little taps with a small hammer to seat it in. If it still drips, take it apart and give it a couple more taps.

Click to expand...

The new neoprene tipped needle and the new seat that came with the rebuild kit were junk. They didn't seal/seat. I bench tested the carburetor function after reinstalling and uninstalling it three times. No matter what, I couldn't get the new needle and seat to seal. I put the old needle and seat back in the carb, bench tested it and it sealed/seated great. I believe the old needle was neoprene though.

I can't find an all brass needle for a float.

Trouble with neoprene is that it won't tolerate oxygenated gas. Sometimes that tip will swell so large it shuts the gas off entirely. Viton is the preferred soft tip for carb floats now. Don't put a brass needle in a brass seat, what fixerupper said was a steel needle and his procedure will work as long as you don't get too excited with the hammer. As long as the steel needle isn't too badly grooved that is.

(quoted from post at 19:25:40 11/21/18) Trouble with neoprene is that it won't tolerate oxygenated gas. Sometimes that tip will swell so large it shuts the gas off entirely. Viton is the preferred soft tip for carb floats now. Don't put a brass needle in a brass seat, what fixerupper said was a steel needle and his procedure will work as long as you don't get too excited with the hammer. As long as the steel needle isn't too badly grooved that is.

Click to expand...

That makes sense. The needle that didn’t work was Viton. No clue what the old one was that I reinstalled. I can’t find an all steel float needle. They all seem to have a viton tip.

I replaced the starter’s solenoid today with that push button one from Brillman and it starts like a champ now. It runs much better too. I like the capability of starting it at the starter. I’d definitely recommend the push button solenoid if any of you have one that starts going bad.

There’s definitely some groaning noise at idle speed and it seems to be coming from the generator. I can’t tell for certain, but I’m pretty sure that’s it.

Well, I'm eating crow... Starts without any issue, but's it's chugging again...

When I shut off the fuel when it's running, it smooths right out and runs like a champ. So I suppose that would mean the fuel pressure from the gravity feed line is causing the carb to flood, therefore needle/seat/float - something isn't right.

My setup is as follows from the bottom of the fuel tank to the small body Marvel Schebler TSX936:
1.) Fuel bowl with faulty petcock
2.) New 1/4-turn fuel shutoff valve
3.) 5/16" fuel line
4.) Inline fuel filter ~8" away from the carb
5.) 5/16" fuel line
6.) Elbow into carb

When I turn the 1/4-turn shutoff to the ON position, you can definitely see fuel rush into the fuel bowl at the bottom of the gas tank. It'll continue to do so and eventually flood the carb and the carb will start to leak.

I believe someone already mentioned finding an all brass needle & seat combo. Where would I find an all brass needle? Have one machined?

Someone mentioned the float catching the inside of the carb... I recall the last time I had the carb open, the internal surfaces were very rough, like a casting. Any benefit to grinding it down smooth?

Since this thing already pukes fuel out of the main gasket when flooding, should I go ahead and get another rebuild kit and replace the gaskets again?

As it turns out, the new float I installed on the last rebuild took on gas, so it wouldn t float. When it sat for some time with the fuel shut off, the gas must ve evaporated some because it would run better. I m rebuilding it again.

(quoted from post at 15:40:25 05/05/19)
As it turns out, the new float I installed on the last rebuild took on gas, so it wouldn t float. When it sat for some time with the fuel shut off, the gas must ve evaporated some because it would run better. I m rebuilding it again.

Click to expand...

There might be an internal crack in your carburetor making it flood with gas.

This rebuild went 100X better than the last. Everything went together correctly. McDonald carb sent a very comprehensive rebuild kit catered to my carb, including a freshly machined main nozzle. So I have a spare now.

The float he sent me is 2X to 3X thicker than the last one I bought. I set it to 1/4" and dry fit everything. I couldn t see anything rubbing.

Thus far, the tractor runs great. I dragged the horse pasture then my driveway today. No issues at all.