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Valve Guides D-14

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onetotaltoolman

05-08-2023 07:10:56

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Ok - did a compression test on this engine, and #2 was low. Leak down test revealed a big leak thru the valves. Pulled the head, cleaned out i think 50 years of gunk and carbon, ready to start lapping valves. In the valve kit i received new guides. I have two manuals. Both contradict each other. For my engine serial number, this appears to be an earlier made engine. I will assume manual #2 is then correct. For those who have not done this, in my rookie opinion, i'm using a air hammer with a precision made installer from Goodson Mfg (about 40 bucks). This made this a 2 minute job to take out the old ones, and now on to the new ones. So, the question is this for those who have ventured in to valves on the a.c's. : Do i set these guides so the ring on the valve guide sets flush with the top of the head? Looks like the exhaust valve is slightly recessed, so it would set just a little lower. Insights from the A.C. skilled?

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onetotaltoolman

05-15-2023 03:15:57

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Re: Valve Guides D-14 in reply to onetotaltoolman, 05-08-2023 07:10:56

One more question on these valves. Decided to put in new valves, lap them, and see what results i get. In the valve kit that i received, which included guides, keepers, valves and springs, there were also 8 square-edged o-rings. The original valves didn't have any type of oil seal on them, and these rings fit snuggly around the valve stems, which is where i'll assume they go. Am i correct to assume these o-rings fit on the stem right on top of the valve guide as it enters the head ? Can't really find anything on this, and neither of my books address it. Makes sense to try to stop any excess oil from entering the intake/exhaust area.

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rustred

05-15-2023 13:04:20

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Re: Valve Guides D-14 in reply to onetotaltoolman, 05-15-2023 03:15:57

Yes thats where they go. They need a groove to fit in. Just just the GM seals. If no grooves i the top of the valve stem leave them out. I asked for for pics as it the top of the guide is at an angle no seals required. How much oil do u think is going to run down .002 clearance. ? The guide needs lubrication also.

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rustred

05-09-2023 15:49:46

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Re: Valve Guides D-14 in reply to onetotaltoolman, 05-08-2023 07:10:56

Just how loose were them guides. I would say u just created more problems for yourself if youre not grinding the valves after installing new giudes. Basically unheard of to do that. But beginners will learn later in time. The experienced have given u good correct info on that situation about a proper valve job. Should have just cleaned up all the valves and guides and let it go as that.

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Bob Bancroft

05-09-2023 01:02:17

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Re: Valve Guides D-14 in reply to onetotaltoolman, 05-08-2023 07:10:56

On you tube JAMSI is an engine machine shop, and an AC owner. It sounds like you would do well to contact them and get some technical advice.

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DrAllis

05-08-2023 19:51:08

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Re: Valve Guides D-14 in reply to onetotaltoolman, 05-08-2023 07:10:56

On a gas engine that age, I usually assume the exhaust seats need to be REPLACED, and maybe, just maybe I could salvage the intake seats with some creative seat grinding.

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rustred

05-08-2023 14:26:17

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Re: Valve Guides D-14 in reply to onetotaltoolman, 05-08-2023 07:10:56

i like to see pictures when talking critical stuff. you are wasting time installing them anyhow if you dont have a valve and seat grinder. its machine shop work. u cant lap valves once new guides are installed, never heard of that and have never done that in y life. lapping used to be done after the valve and seat grind to seat the valve. no longer done,.. obsolete,.. as an interferance angle is used instead of lapping. and yes i have ground valves the proper way. way more to it than what you think. and the recessed means the seats are worn out and need to be replaced. i know parts are expensive but do it once do it right. and installing guides the bottom end is the thing to go by. plus many guides are tapered at the top which is for the oil to run away when not using seals. you should have seen how the old guides were when u pressed them out. and whats all in the valve KIT your talking about. if there is new valves in there they should be resurfaced up also on the resurfacer.

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onetotaltoolman

05-08-2023 14:43:02

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Re: Valve Guides D-14 in reply to rustred, 05-08-2023 14:26:17

Wow - much to learn i guess for a correct valve job. First, there was no rhyme or reason to the valve guides i took out. They were at different heights which made zero sense to me. Given the head is pretty easy to pull off the tractor, i pretty much figured i had little to loose given the cylinder with the low compression and super high leak rate needed work to be done anyway. I have complete respect for anyone who has spent hours rebuilding engines and the knowledge that accompanies it, however, there are hundreds of articles, vids, etc. on small engines with new valves installed that have had them lapped . The kit i bought has springs, valves, guides, and retainers. i removed the old valve guides because 'why not if new valves are being installed. Interesting that you do point out the position of the bottom of the valve guides, but both of the shop manuals i am looking at (one original for the 60's and one pdf copy of a different version) both point to the eight of the tops.

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Gary Reif

05-08-2023 19:19:23

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Re: Valve Guides D-14 in reply to onetotaltoolman, 05-08-2023 14:43:02

I agree with Rustred, there's a lot more to rebuilding a head then changing guides and lapping the valves. This may not apply to this case but sometime when changing guides the valve stem to guide bore clearance may need reamed. I've spent 25 years in an automotive machine shop and have rebuilt numerous heads and never changed guides without regrinding the seats to match the valves for a proper seal.

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rustred

05-08-2023 16:50:56

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Re: Valve Guides D-14 in reply to onetotaltoolman, 05-08-2023 14:43:02

here's the thing, on u tube u hardly ever see a qualified mechanic post stuff. its them wanna be backyard guys showing off thinking they know stuff. lots of it i laugh off. yes there is lots to doing valves as thats why its not done at home. the average guy cant afford all that equipment. plus i went to school right out of high school and had my red seal ticket when i was 22 years old . that was almost 45 years ago. plus i didnt mention that the seat width has to be a certain width also. for example intake 1/16 the and the exhaust 1/8 width. i have saw guys try to lap valves even though the seat width is way over spec. lapping does not remove metal, it smoothens out the seat for a good seat. and do you know once that guides are replaced the seats are no longer matching. like to se a pic of them valve faces and seats. probaly all pounded out already so no way you gonna do anything lapping them. and as i said now the stem is tight in the bore and hold that face in one spot so pretty hard to get a seal now. this is a specialized job, not back yard work. putting it together after the head rebuild is your job. and anybody that has learned to do head work will agree with what i am saying. there is all kinds of info and people with ideas , but u need to pick what is correct. i myself being a mechanic would never think to replace guides lap the valves and seats and call it good. and i also know that there is people that do that and call it a valve job.i like to see things done correctly.its usually the money thing that changes people mind to cut corners.

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onetotaltoolman

05-09-2023 02:55:38

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Re: Valve Guides D-14 in reply to rustred, 05-08-2023 16:50:56

I appreciate all of the comments and am soaking in the knowledge from those that have been in the engine build business. At this point, this engine has quite a bit of wear, and the tractor was actually free, so i'm going to continue to re-assemble and see if i can get it to run. after soaking the head in the parts cleaner , most of the carbon is out, and fortunately there is no damage from water or other to the valve seats. I guess i'll reinstall the valve guides to the specs from the original parts manual, lap the valves, and put the head back on and give it a spin. If this goes south, it's cost little and that will trigger a complete engine tear down and proper head job at someones shop. I will be interested to see if the leak-down test will change once the new valves are back in. Although that may not mean perfection by any standards, the last test showed a dismal #2 cylinder and a heavy leak through the exhaust valve there. Moving on and thanks to all comments.

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onetotaltoolman

05-09-2023 07:22:34

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Re: Valve Guides D-14 in reply to onetotaltoolman, 05-09-2023 02:55:38

Took a couple of pics of this first valve adventure. The seats, after a good cleaning dip, look ok (to my untrained eye). One shot of two installed valve guides reveals some of the confusion . See the recessed port on the left side (think that is the exhaust valve in the pic). Other thing that is sorta interesting is the last two pics below of one of the old valves. The contact point on one side of the valve is much wider than the contact point on the other side of the valve. Suppose that's the way it has worn. So, with that, i'm probably going to proceed with a lapping procedure to see if i can get this thing to run. I'll save a pro total head/valve job for the complete overhaul which i suppose will happen sooner than later.

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