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Allis Chalmers Discussion Forum
:

Allis broke my wrist

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bwillett

07-10-2020 06:52:30




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Last Sunday my WC Allis kicked back on me and bent my right wrist back and broke it. It is not a bad break, but bad enough. Other than that it starts and runs good. Better than before I started messing with it last May. Some how, before I bought this tractor the flywheel got removed and replaced, but it is 90 degrees out. In other words, the "F" mark on the flywheel comes into view when cylinder #2 is coming up on the compression stroke. I have gotten it timed almost right, tho. So, my question is two parts, can I just move the magneto slightly to make it fire just a little later, so that it does not kickback, and which way do I move the magneto to do that? Nothing in any of the manuals I have on this.

thanks in advance.

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chaskaduo

07-15-2020 14:15:49




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to bwillett, 07-10-2020 06:52:30  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

That is hilarious Dick! :lol: :lol: :lol:



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Dick L

07-15-2020 11:48:07




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to bwillett, 07-10-2020 06:52:30  
Anti kicking device! It filters out that improper timing.



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bwillett

07-16-2020 06:36:29




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to Dick L, 07-15-2020 11:48:07  
May try that next....



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Aaron SEIA

07-14-2020 17:29:17




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to bwillett, 07-10-2020 06:52:30  
Gotcha. I'm one of those "modern view" guys and I think I miss out on who is replying to what.

AaronSEIA



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Aaron SEIA

07-14-2020 15:49:30




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to bwillett, 07-10-2020 06:52:30  
Who's guessing? The last few posts have given solid advice. Get #1 up TDC and static time the mag.

AaronSEIA



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Butch(OH)

07-14-2020 16:26:19




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to Aaron SEIA, 07-14-2020 15:49:30  
If you look again I replied to Funky00 not to you or the OP



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Dick L

07-14-2020 09:34:29




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to bwillett, 07-10-2020 06:52:30  
The way I check for TDC fire is to have the spark wire where I can see the spark when the impulse clicks by bumping the crank so as not to turn the crank farther than the click. I then check for the TDC line. I turn the magneto slightly until the TDC is in the center of the inspection hole. Using a timing light is easier and quicker but not needed. Either one is a slight pain with the inspection hole on the opposite side as the magneto.

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Dick L

07-15-2020 04:13:59




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to Dick L, 07-14-2020 09:34:29  
I don't get it! How one of the easiest things to do is set timing at TDC is so misunderstood or not understood. When timing with a timing light you adjust the magneto or distributor so the TDC line is in the center of the inspection hole. The magneto firing a spark to the number one spark plug is what tells the timing light to light up to see the TDC line. So without the timing light seeing the spark without moving the flywheel and looking for the TDC line does the exact same thing. It just takes longer with the many foot steps to move from one side to the other. No guessing involved. I never had better ears than my eyes when making checks such as these.

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Dick L

07-15-2020 06:30:17




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to Dick L, 07-15-2020 04:13:59  
Adding --- With the timing light you see FIRE line in the inspection hole at the bottom on this tractor rather than the other side when running wide open or high idle because magneto or distributor automatic timing advance.



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Aaron SEIA

07-14-2020 03:53:21




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to bwillett, 07-10-2020 06:52:30  
I never use the flywheel to time. I use my thumb. Pull the plugs and roll the engine over till the #1 plug hole is pushing air past your thumb. Then you know you are on #1 compression. Roll to the top to get to TDC and set the mag from there.

AaronSEIA



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funky_g00

07-13-2020 07:51:19




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to bwillett, 07-10-2020 06:52:30  
Since no one has answered your question yet, yes if it is timed close enough to back fire, it should be able to be adjusted out by twisting the magneto. As to which direction I do not recall off hand. I have always done the trial and error method. Adjust and pull start repeat as necessary. Once running set timing according to book, or time by ear, tighten everything up and verify.



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Butch(OH)

07-14-2020 14:38:50




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to funky_g00, 07-13-2020 07:51:19  
Setting by guess already screwed up his hand so lets guess some more and start twisting the mag without him knowing where he is at or what hebis doing?? OK here ya go, turning the top of the magneto towards the block retards the timing, have at it,,,



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bwillett

07-16-2020 06:39:43




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to Butch(OH), 07-14-2020 14:38:50  
That is the answer this whole thread was about. Thanks, Butch(OH)



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Aaron SEIA

07-12-2020 12:47:46




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to bwillett, 07-10-2020 06:52:30  
Not wanting to restart hot is a sign the coil or condenser are bad. Start there, then be sure it goes together right.

AaronSEIA



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bwillett

07-13-2020 05:07:42




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to Aaron SEIA, 07-12-2020 12:47:46  
Since it is re-timed (almost), it will start every time you try it. Unfortunately, it tries to kick back every time, too.



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JoeM(GA)

07-11-2020 10:02:58




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to bwillett, 07-10-2020 06:52:30  
Are you timing it from the top small door, or from the bottom? IF I remember right the hand crank ones times from the top, electric from the bottom



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bwillett

07-13-2020 05:08:34




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to JoeM(GA), 07-11-2020 10:02:58  
bottom, like the book days.



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Aaron SEIA

07-11-2020 03:52:20




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to bwillett, 07-10-2020 06:52:30  
Did it run fine before messing with the timing? What made you think it needed re-timed?

AaronSEIA



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bwillett

07-12-2020 05:51:34




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to Aaron SEIA, 07-11-2020 03:52:20  
Aaron SEIA, It ran ok, did not like to start after being run for a while and shut off.. I had a hard time starting it after a rain, and I thought that I could take the cap off and spray WD-40 in it to dry it out. Afterward, I could not get it to line up all the marks. That was when this adventure started.



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Bill_MN

07-10-2020 17:55:04




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to bwillett, 07-10-2020 06:52:30  
1 and 2 cylinders are 180 degrees apart on crank so it would be off 180, since your compression is on 2 it sounds like the cam is out of position not the magneto.



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Dick L

07-11-2020 02:39:44




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to Bill_MN, 07-10-2020 17:55:04  
It wouldn't run 180 degrees off. Second sentence says it runs well.



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bwillett

07-16-2020 06:46:07




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to Dick L, 07-11-2020 02:39:44  
Another problem the tractor had was that I had the firing order wrong with the wires. It had carbon wires on it when I bought it, so I changed them out for solid copper wires. But, I put them on in the reverse order.Firing order is supposed to be 1-2-4-3 and I had them 1-3-4-2.



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bwillett

07-10-2020 16:55:37




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to bwillett, 07-10-2020 06:52:30  
As for you other fellows, I was not trying to start the tractor by spinning the crank, nor did I have my thumb wrapped around the handle. I have owned this tractor for 9 years, and it has not kicked back on me until I tried to set the timing, after taking the cap off the magneto without lining things up like I was supposed to. However I did not know that I messed it up until I read up on the magneto. Oh, and the magneto is not a Fairbanks-Morse. It is an American Bosch. Yet another thing about this tractor that is not stock.

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Aaron SEIA

07-10-2020 16:47:32




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to bwillett, 07-10-2020 06:52:30  
They flywheel can only bolt on one way. It is impossible for the flywheel to be wrong. It is possible for the cam, mag, or timing to be wrong.

AaronSEIA



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Dick L

07-10-2020 14:14:51




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to bwillett, 07-10-2020 06:52:30  
Sorry about the wrist! That can't be fun.



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bwillett

07-16-2020 06:48:04




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to Dick L, 07-10-2020 14:14:51  
It is healing well, but it does put a new wrinkle in every thing I try to do with this brace on....



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Dick L

07-10-2020 14:13:07




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to bwillett, 07-10-2020 06:52:30  
Of course it does. It is a four cycle engine and the Fire mark is 30 degrees before Top Dead Center on all pistons. You have two pistons at top dead center each rotation on all four cylinder engines. One on compression and one on exhaust. All flywheels will only go on in one position with all four bolts threaded in because one hole is always off set from the other three.



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bwillett

07-10-2020 16:46:41




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to Dick L, 07-10-2020 14:13:07  
DickL there are no other marks on this flywheel. There is a mark for TDC and there is a mark for Fire...They only show in the window when #2 is coming up on compression. They should not be doing that. I have no explanation, I just know what I am looking at.



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Dick L

07-11-2020 02:36:33




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to bwillett, 07-10-2020 16:46:41  
They have to come into the window every revolution. The flywheel makes one revolution for each cylinder on the compression stroke and one revolution for each cylinder on the exhaust stroke. So the marks will be going past the window twice for each cylinder to be able to fire and exhaust for the engine to run. Place a white paint spot the size of a quarter over the F and TDC then remove the paint from the letters grooves.

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rustred

07-10-2020 12:09:12




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to bwillett, 07-10-2020 06:52:30  
when that happens its the persons fault that screws around with the timing. when hand crank tractors are timed correctly they dont kick you. i have lots i start with a crank. i time my own units to what factory spec is. not by ear! TO retart timing u always turn distributor in the same direction rotor turns when running. to check your magneto spark at TDC. remove #1 plug or all for ease of turning. have spark plug grounded close so you can see and hear the spark jump. have someone turn the crank very slowly while you feel the piston with a pop straw coming up to tdc. get it to spark at tdc not before . this way no guessing without marks. plus make sure the points are set to spec. first.

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Butch(OH)

07-12-2020 18:26:04




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to rustred, 07-10-2020 12:09:12  
Exactly right, I have preached it for years. If you hand crank a tractor forget all other timing information, specs and advise and remember this; For it to be safe to hand crank that impulse must NOT ckick before TDC. If set to impulse at or slightly after TDC and it has the correct impulse coupling and the points are set right then the total timing when running will be correct.

Sorry to hear about your wrist!! I had a close call at a tractor show when an old gent could t muster the strength to crank his tractor. Luckily I was practicing good crank educate and it didn't get me when it kicked back.

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bwillett

07-13-2020 05:13:46




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to Butch(OH), 07-12-2020 18:26:04  
Butch, that is what I am asking for help with. Getting the engine timed so that it won't kick back. I did not need the lecture. I thought I was exercising caution while getting it ready to crank. Again, is the adjustment in the timing of the mageneto close enough that just moving the mag will get me there?



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rustred

07-15-2020 21:15:20




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to bwillett, 07-13-2020 05:13:46  
i told you how!! people over look proper advise staring at them.



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Rogeriniowa

07-10-2020 08:46:15




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to bwillett, 07-10-2020 06:52:30  
When using a hand crank, only pull up. Never try to spin! NEVER WRAP YOUR FIST AROUND THE HANDLE. THUMB GOES ON SAME SIDE AS FINGERS!



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Bill(Wis)

07-10-2020 11:11:15




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to Rogeriniowa, 07-10-2020 08:46:15  
That's one of the first things my Dad taught me when I was 6 years old. That and put the transmission in neutral with the clutch lock DOWN. Told me about a guy who crank started an Oliver which was in gear. Tractor took him right through the back wall of the shed. Killed him. Well, at least it got him out of the gene pool. He didn't say that. I figured that out on my own later. (;>))



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Goose

07-10-2020 10:33:11




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to Rogeriniowa, 07-10-2020 08:46:15  
Back in the day, a neighbor of ours managed to break a leg hand cranking a CC Case.



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4wdtom

07-10-2020 07:06:35




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 Re: Allis broke my wrist in reply to bwillett, 07-10-2020 06:52:30  
It seems to me my WD flywheel will only go on in one position, there is one hole that is out of position to time it.



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