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Allis Chalmers Discussion Forum
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D14 Choke Question

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YTSupport

04-27-2018 21:32:13




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If you have a D14, can you check the clearance between the choke rod and the solenoid. I'm doing the wiring right now was shocked to see that I have a 16th of an inch between the choke rod and the tip of the solenoid terminal. None of that is new and the starter is original and mounted in the same position. Solenoid is one I replaced 25 years ago and is identical to an original I have (except it's has bakelite rather than all steel). Apparently I ran this thing like this for years but it looks like I should have at least occasionally shorted to ground while starting. Stared at it for about 20 minutes moving it around in position and trying to figure out if something is out of place, but it's not looking like it. The engine isn't in yet, but still, if the side cover were on, it would be nearly touching the solenoid terminal, and actually can with almost no pressure.
I'm considering taking a hack saw to the terminal since it has almost a 1/4 inch extra stock past what is needed.

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YTSupport

04-29-2018 11:16:46




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 Re: D14 Choke Question in reply to YTSupport, 04-27-2018 21:32:13  
I just checked what I had in the shop, I'll start with a 30 amp while I'm shaking down the system. If that holds, I'll just leave it in there. I would think a short would be he only thing that could take it out with a generator system.

Removing a side panel is a pain I've never liked (as most people apparently, given how often they are gone on D14s and D15s), but if it's sized to catastrophe, it shouldn't be a common occurrence, and you are in the side panels anyway if any wiring problem occurs.

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YTSupport

04-29-2018 09:16:54




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 Re: D14 Choke Question in reply to YTSupport, 04-27-2018 21:32:13  
After looking at breakers, I realized for my needs, the simplest solution is just to put an auto spade fuse in there. It will pop very quickly if a short occurs, and I can change from say a 40 amp to a 60 if I ever put the alternator in this thing. Pulling it off the main starter lug will protect everything but the starter. I already picked one up with 10 AWG leads. Just have to remove the side cover if it ever pops, but that's not too serious. I already wired in the stock fuse for the lighting circuit, and I'll leave that since the rear lights and their harness, are the most likely place to have a short from damage by undergrowth when mowing. That would leave the tractor functional to get back to the shop.

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Bob Bancroft

04-29-2018 10:08:45




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 Re: D14 Choke Question in reply to YTSupport, 04-29-2018 09:16:54  
I had thought about just using an in line fuse on my D15II, like I did on the C and WD45, but I knew I would be mightily irritated to have to remove the side panel. Then there's the dash mounted fuse holder, like AC used for the lights. But my friend, whose D15II melted the wiring, is an aircraft mechanic, so he got the aircraft type circuit breakers for both of us.



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YTSupport

04-29-2018 07:49:18




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 Re: D14 Choke Question in reply to YTSupport, 04-27-2018 21:32:13  
Nothing like a fire under the gas tank ;).

You mean something like this:

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/6070amp.php, it would be most convenient because the line coming from the starter main to the Ammeter can be rerouted to it in the dash, I'd just put it in the hole for the belt pulley actuator, then up to the Ammeter from there. I have a good grade of TXL 10 AWG in that line anyway.
There is also this, which could instead protect the system more fully and could go between the battery plus and starter solenoid. Might be able to mount it on the Battery tray out of sight, though space is tight in the D14.

https://ceautoelectricsupply.com/product/manual-resetting-circuit-breakers/ (the 100 amp), smallest they have.

Both these companies are excellent.

I have to undo and reroute the wiring harness anyway, I just noticed in the manual, it's supposed to be hung from the tank support rather than run along the torque tube as I did so it is a good time to do it.
I may have been wrong about the starter, there is a slight difference in the Solenoids we sell and the one I have (there are a couple of different types), the starting lug cocks down at an angle. The choke rod in the manual also looks different than the one I have making me think my solenoid is for the later model and my choke rod is a first iteration on the early 6-volt. I may just make a new choke rod. That would be fastest.

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YTSupport

04-29-2018 04:55:22




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 Re: D14 Choke Question in reply to YTSupport, 04-27-2018 21:32:13  
Woke up early and this was nagging me. It's probably, right solenoid, wrong starter. The mounting holes must be slightly different and I'd have to pull the starter back out to make certain of that. I guess when you've had a tractor as long as I've had this one, you can think things are original that are not.
It's rework, but I'll pull the starter and rethink it. If they are different, I'll rebuild the other starter and put the better solenoid on it. Such a shame with a good starter.

Thanks for thinking it through with me.

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Bob Bancroft

04-29-2018 07:00:37




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 Re: D14 Choke Question in reply to YTSupport, 04-29-2018 04:55:22  
I was thinking my fuse/circuit breaker idea probably could use some clarification. I wire them in as close to the power source as possible, so the whole system is protected. This typically means as close to the solenoid as possible. Then, in case of a short, the complete tractor wiring is protected. Only the main battery to solenoid cable remains live. Originally, the only thing protected is the lighting circuit.

A friends D15II luckily, somehow escaped destruction when the cut out side of the voltage regulator stuck on shut down, unnoticed. The generator and some wires were fried. When we rewired it, we installed a circuit breaker as described. And not an auto store automatic resting one, an aircraft manual reset one.

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YTSupport

04-28-2018 20:50:32




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 Re: D14 Choke Question in reply to YTSupport, 04-27-2018 21:32:13  
I have one I was planning to put in but when I decided to go with the original generator (over and alternator), I just put the light fuse block in from the original wiring diagram. Maybe I should do that.
The photo is of where the choke rod actually strikes it (it comes up hard against it when the choke is closed). I have an original steel case solenoid off the other D14. I think I will check out if this one (obvious replacement from earlier in the tractors life) is just slightly different, didn't look like it but I didn't put the other side by side. I did take a look at the starter from the other one and couldn't see anything obviously different.

Ran into another conflict today. The light switch is a long auto switch and sticks out so far, the belt pulley actuator rod won't clear it. The darned thing is, until you get everything mounted, you don't see the conflicts. The tractor is getting a belt pulley for the first time. Maybe I should pull it and put in on the D15D instead, I'm anxious to get the D14 done and out of the shop and get on with Kim's D10.
third party image

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YTSupport

04-28-2018 14:10:56




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 Re: D14 Choke Question in reply to YTSupport, 04-27-2018 21:32:13  
No it's the starter button connection to the solenoid so it only would have been hot during cranking. The white wire shown in the photo. In the right middle of the photo, you can see the groove that the shaft sits against when the side panel is on. When it's on, you can barely see daylight between the two. Putting a boot over it would help and I will trim the threads back a bit. I also figured I'd run some shrink tubing down the shaft to insulate both sides.
I just asked because it felt like I must be missing something in the assembly, but I'm pretty sure everything is going in exactly as it came out, there aren't too many options.
I guess it's just poor engineering given the flex of the shaft. The reason it probably never shorted, is that you jam the choke shaft forward right after you let up on the starter button, and that's the time it would flex into the solenoid connection, which would already be dead.
Going to finish all the wiring today and debug the circuits before putting the engine in.

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Bob Bancroft

04-28-2018 16:11:55




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 Re: D14 Choke Question in reply to YTSupport, 04-28-2018 14:10:56  
OK. A picture is worth a thousand words. I had assumed it was one of the larger terminals. Do you think the position of the small terminal is a little different from the original solenoid? After a neighbor had a fire on his MF 65, I put fuse or circuit breaker protection on all my old tractors which didn't originally have it. On the C, WD45 it was easy, as all those connections are out in the open. On my D15II, I wired an aircraft circuit breaker in the supply wire right there at the solenoid, and mounted it in the side panel. The nice part about those is they can be used like a switch. Manual reset. Manual on/off.

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Bob Bancroft

04-28-2018 12:46:39




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 Re: D14 Choke Question in reply to YTSupport, 04-27-2018 21:32:13  
Can't help on that. But I am wondering if that's the live terminal, or the output to starter terminal? I've collected every size boot there is, and cover those connections when I work on them.



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