Allis Chalmers B Starter not turning over

Ive been having trouble starting my old model B. Ive checked that the battery is good. Now im checking the starter and it seems there"s an issue with it.

When hitting the starter switch it basically does nothing, no turning over at all. I took the black delco starter off this evening and cleaned the inside a bit, and also confirmed that the drive is working, i.e. the engine isnt locked up.

I reattached and it still wouldn"t start. So I attempted one of the things listed here:

http://www.ytmag.com/ac/messages/86889.html

Basically I hard wired the battery to the starter post, with the ground on the body of the tractor. When applying current nothing happens. So then I grounded the cables to the outside of the starter, as recommended in the previous forum. When I did this and applied current, the started tried to turn over for like a half second, then it would stop, and smoke for a second like it was shorting, until I removed current.

Is the starter short circuiting on the inside or something? the wires connected to the spring loaded bushings on the inside look pretty worn, so it wouldn't surprise me if something was shorting. Is this common? Is it repairable? Any other ideas?

dcwatson84
Quite common. Sounds like the bushings are worn on the starter shaft allowing the inside to rub on the outside windings. You undo the bolts and slide it apart to check. You may have to disassemble the bendix but not too difficult. Remember what goes where when putting it together with the new bushings.. Ed

Im not sure which part I need to slide apart?

Ive already removed the black cylindrical housing? Inside that is a rotating steel shaft that fits back into the tractor. Do I need to remove that shaft as well?

My assumption was that the problem must be somewhere on the black housing. Because if that were working correctly then the current would force the steel shaft to turn, like a motor. Where currently nothing is turning, so current isnt being correctly applied by the starter to that shaft? does any of that make sense?

I also dont see anything that resembles a bendix, so I assume thats behind the shaft?

The bendix is the spring and sliding gear that engages the starter rotor to the engine. It is removed by removing a bolt.
Did you connect power to the starter when it was out of the tractor? A Generator/starter shop could tell you if there is a problem with the starter. Like was said, the rotor has a very close tollerance to the windings and if the shaft bearing is worn the rotor will drag on the windings and not create a maginetic flux. Bob

I connected the power while the starter was on the tractor. I could hear it try and turn, but it sounded like it just got stuck, and then shorted.

One thing I did notice is that the shaft that the starter fits around wobbled a little bit. i.e. once i took the starter off, that rotating shaft didnt stay perfectly straight, it would wobble up and down, is that normal?

Ill try to find somewhere that can take a look at the starter. Other than that is there anything else I can inspect/test myself?

So after looking around on the internet I think Ive got some more information...

First off - here's what I'm referring to as the starter...

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ew-_QRkMF4s/TmFzdXhgzwI/AAAAAAAACKI/DUVvCFsn9kc/s592/IMG_0089.JPG

However - Ive seen a few places online where that unit is being called a generator?

https://www.link_disallowed/Remanufactured_Generator_p/203529.htm

Which is it? If its not the starter, where is the starter drive on my tractor?

Also, when I find pictures of the starter drive:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1880651-New-Allis-Chalmers-B-IB-C-CA-Farm-Tractor-Starter-Drive-/320738134889

That does not resemble the shaft inside my starter motor. Ill try and take some pictures this evening. Are the parts on my tractor just old, and look different than their modern counterparts?

It sound like you disassembled the starter with out removing it from the tractor. If you remove the bolt in the casting directly in front of the starter, the entire starter will come out including the armature(the center shaft), nose cone and starter drive(last picture). If you look inside the black cylindrical part (the field winding) you will probably find rub marks from where the armature has been dragging.

Yep, it seems I did. I didnt realize that the starter went all the way into the tractor like that. After looking inside the black cylinder (the motor i guess?) it does look like there's been some rubbing, theres a build up of metal fillings in a few places.

So I guess the question now is - is there any way to further narrow down this problem, to figure out the failure point? My best guess is that motor is the part that is failing, since the shaft turns freely. Does that seem reasonable?

I dont really know of anyone around that does tractor repair, so If I ordered a starter repair kit (ive seen a few) id have to do the replacement myself.

If not that then the only other option I see is to buy a rebuilt starter. For some reason I cant find anywhere that sells just the motor housing. You can buy the shaft, the bendix, and the nose cone, and some of the other parts individually, but I just cant find anyone that sells just the motor housing. So Id have to buy a full replacement package, which runs about $200 for a remanufactured one.

Any other tips or suggestions?

(Thanks for the help so far - ive learned quite a bit)

your first photo is the starter motor mounted into the orange bell housing with the 5/8 inch lock bolt screwed into it to retain it. First take the 5/8 inch bolt out wiggle the starter out. It might be rusted into the hole, will take some prying. Clean the bore so there is no rust inside as the starter has to ground thru the case to the tractor frame to make electrical contact. While the starter is out, look at the smalle battery contact switch on the side. Take the two screws out and pop off the switch. Its possible that the switch has failed or dirty and will not make contact. Take your battery cables and touch one to the starter case, and the other to the brass lug on the case under the switch. If the works, the switch needs cleaned or replaced. Also look at the bendix, the spring loaded shaft on the nose end. If the spring or bolts are broke, the starter will spin, but not engage the flywheel.

Best advice, stop guessing, find a good rebuild shop and have it fixed properly.

(quoted from post at 10:42:25 03/04/12) Best advice, stop guessing, find a good rebuild shop and have it fixed properly.

Click to expand...

Thats what Im going do I think. Well, either that or just order a rebuilt one off the internet. They are pretty expensive ($200) , but I dont think there are any local tractor repair shops, so that may be my only option.