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Allis Chalmers Discussion Forum
:

CA pops out of 3rd gear

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jake winn

10-13-2009 22:23:42




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I recently purchaced a nice orginal CA that runs and drives nice, but pops out of 3rd gear. I feel it go into the detend, but it pops out when you let the clutch out. I havent removed the side cover yet, but if I need to split it and pull the gear, what is the basic procedure? I dont have an IT manual yet or an OEM tech manual. Thanks for any help.




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Texas Denny

10-14-2009 08:52:20




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 Re: CA pops out of 3rd gear in reply to jake winn, 10-13-2009 22:23:42  
Jake, I had a CA with exactly the same problem. I fixed in 1995. I used the tractor until 2001 when I sold it. It came up for sale on Ebay in August. I liked the tractor so I bought it back - a second time. Third gear still works.

I give you that background as information to substantiate the following comments. When my CA was new, third gear meshed about 15 to 20%. Normal use will cause the corners to wear off the knobs on the synchro type gears. When the engagement is less than 25%, normal use will eventually round off the knobs so that they pop out of gear. The cause is totally the result of poor tolerance buildup in the manufacture of the shifting fork assembly.

I split my tractor and carefully examined every gear synchro in the transmission. Second and third have exactly the same set up. And the wear on the gears and synchro were virtually identical. However, second worked fine and third popped out. I bought a shifting fork assembly from another CA that the owner said was a good transmission. Using digital calipers and micrometers, I determined that the new fork assembly would push third gear into engagement 0.080" more than my original forks. I installed the new fork assembly and tested the tractor. It stayed in gear. The tractor has been in use since 1995. It still stays in gear.

There are several ways to repair your tractor.

1) Split the tractor and replace the gears and leave the fork assembly as is. Careful use may get years of service. Cost will likely approach $1000 or more for parts. I think this is a poor choice for a tractor that may be worth from $1000 to $2000.

2) Buy a known good fork assembly. I think mine cost $25. I don't know what they cost today. Even if the first purchase turned out bad, the cost is low enough that you could buy another.

3) Build up the surface of the third gear shift fork so that it pushes the slider more into gear. A good welder can do this but you'd need a machinist and a milling machine to resurface the fork. This will work only if there is 0.050 to 0.100" of clearance between the fork and the slider. These parts are seldom worn that badly.

4) Build a new set of detent shafts. This requires a machinist with a ball mill to machine the detents. The new shaft will be identical to the old shaft except that the third gear detent will be 0.080" to 0.100" further from neutral position. One gentleman came to this board for advice. He had a D-14 with no forward gears that worked properly. He made new shift rails based on my suggestion. After installation, two of the four gears were fixed. He felt he'd moved the detents in the wrong direction on the other two. He was delighted - nothing to two is a big change. He didn't post back after his second rebuild so I suspect he got them all to work.

5) Buy new rails and forks. I would only consider this if I were absolutely sure that the sliders and mating gears were serviceable. Plus, I don't know if Allis ever resolved their tolerance problem so new parts may be no better than what you have.

It is very difficult to determine serviceability of your existing sliders and gears with the transmission assembled. Get an IT manual and pull the transmission and gears and inspect them. Compare the parts for second and third. If they are worn the same, focus on the fork assembly. If third is worn considerably more than second, you'll need new gears. If you have a late model CA, you may only need two parts. Older models require 4 to fix this because Allis changed the ratios at sometime in the models life and don't stock the old ratios.

Good luck. My email is open.

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jake winn

10-14-2009 20:00:45




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 Re: CA pops out of 3rd gear in reply to Texas Denny, 10-14-2009 08:52:20  
Denny, Thanks for all the info. I pulled the side cover off tonight. The fork is decent. There is wear on third gear where the reverse idler gear goes over it im assuming to lock it into third. When the shift fork is in the 3rd gear position there is about 1/8 inch between the fork and the side cover. Im going to remachine the detent tomorrow and try that. i have a milling machine and a ball end mill that fits the original detent perfectly. I will post my findings when i have it togeather.

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Texas Denny

10-15-2009 05:53:49




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 Re: CA pops out of 3rd gear in reply to jake winn, 10-14-2009 20:00:45  
I think you will need a new shaft. I suppose it would be possible to fill in the old hole and then machine a new one. I"ve always found weld to machine harder than mill stock so I prefer to start with new.



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jake winn

10-15-2009 18:21:48




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 Re: CA pops out of 3rd gear in reply to Texas Denny, 10-15-2009 05:53:49  
Well no luck with the relocated detent. Well i take that back. It is better than it was. I can actually drive in 3rd for a little ways but when i get a little load on it, it jumps out. I looked at the teeth where the reverse gear goes over it. They are pretty badly worn. So it looks like I need to replace a couple gears.

It appears that i have to pull at least one final, the rear diff cover, the diff, split it at the front of the trans case, then pull the pinion shaft out.

Anyone have any extra gears?

Thanks

jake

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Jeff Z.

10-14-2009 03:18:45




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 Re: CA pops out of 3rd gear in reply to jake winn, 10-13-2009 22:23:42  
First thing is to get a manual. If I remember right that gear is a sliding clutch type that meshes on the face of the gear with a mating gear. Both will have to be replaced. Putting tractor in 3rd fron 2nd without using the clutch causes this.



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Jeff Z.

10-14-2009 12:43:31




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 Re: CA pops out of 3rd gear in reply to Jeff Z., 10-14-2009 03:18:45  
Texas Denny, Sounds like a good way to go before tearing down the transmission.
There is always more than one way to skin a cat.



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