Why does my FO-4 manual suck?

skyhiranger · Dec 3, 2012

I have read several posts talking about all the torque specs that are contained in the FO-4 manual. Mine hardly has any torque specs in it. Did they make some revisions and remove a lot of the torque specs from the manual?
What I am currently looking for is the torque spec for the tie rod end nut. I put new grease seals on and need to torque the nut back properly.

Any insight and help would be appreciated.

Ken(Ark) · Dec 3, 2012

What I am currently looking for is the torque spec for the tie rod end nut.

Most torque specs are for critical areas that involve pressure containment or high load transfers .

Most other nuts and bolts are tightened by "Feel" or you may prefer to use a standard torque chart (table) listing average torques by fastener size .

http://www.engineershandbook.com/Tables/torque.htm

old · Dec 3, 2012

There was in fact 2 different ones printed the old one which has a lot fewer pages an then the newer one which has a good bit more info. I have a copy of both and neither one gives a torque spec for that

skyhiranger · Dec 3, 2012

Thanks for the replies.

My FO-4 is a somewhat newer one....got it in the early '00s. I guess I'll have to look at the print date on it.

I kinda thought steering might be a place where torque specs might be "important"

I guess I'll just do it by "feel". Good thing is, I usually only drive it about 3-4MPH, so if something was to come apart, it shouldn't be too "disasterous". :lol:

skyhiranger · Dec 3, 2012

The copyright date on my manual is 1995. So does that make it a "newer" one, or an "older" one, as far as the amount of info it contains?
I forgot to look at the number of pages that is in it. I can do that, next time I am out at the shop.

HCooke · Dec 3, 2012

Tie rod end nut -- gutt and tight!

notjustair · Dec 3, 2012

I find that the FO4 manual assumes a pretty good mechanical base knowledge. That's something that most men possessed at that time - everything mechanical was a more hands on experience. Folks expecting a manual that tells them word for word what to do in every situation and where to sit while they do it won't be satisfied with it. It is FAR different than my IH manuals.

It still answers most every question you got, though.

skyhiranger · Dec 3, 2012

(quoted from post at 19:42:45 12/03/12) I find that the FO4 manual assumes a pretty good mechanical base knowledge. That's something that most men possessed at that time - everything mechanical was a more hands on experience. Folks expecting a manual that tells them word for word what to do in every situation and where to sit while they do it won't be satisfied with it. It is FAR different than my IH manuals.

It still answers most every question you got, though.

I feel I have better than average mechanical base knowledge. But things like torque specs, can vary significantly, depending on the type of fastener, the application, etc. So I like to have that info provided and not just guess, or assume. I am the same way, when I work on vehicles. I go by the torque specs and not just tighten stuff "about that tight". Afterall, torque specs are not just random numbers that someone made up, they can be the difference between a part working and a part failing.

souNdguy · Dec 4, 2012

yes.. some manual revisions have more data than other.s
a standard sae torque spec chart copied and stuck intot he book will help.

on something like a tie rod end.. getting the pin seated and nut turned to a point that is tight and lets the cotter pin go in..that's all i've ever done..

skyhiranger · Dec 4, 2012

(quoted from post at 09:12:46 12/04/12) yes.. some manual revisions have more data than other.s
a standard sae torque spec chart copied and stuck intot he book will help.

on something like a tie rod end.. getting the pin seated and nut turned to a point that is tight and lets the cotter pin go in..that's all i've ever done..

Only the later 8Ns have the castle nut and cotter pin. My '51 just has the nut.
I have got some additional torque specs for the 8N that I found and printed off and stuck in the book. I guess I need to print off standard torque specs for the bolts/nuts that aren't specifically addressed in the book and/or charts and put in there as well.
Seems kinda stupid to put torque specs in some manuals, then remove them in later revisions. With mine being a '95 copyright, I would think it should have one of the most comprehensive lists of torque specs of any of them....but I guess not.

souNdguy · Dec 4, 2012

i don't have mine handy to look at.. and dout i have opened it in 10ys.. but I do recall mine having ts.. mine may be a 98 or so revision.. can't be much newer than that..

i think I'd make mine a cotter nut if it wasn't already..

skyhiranger · Dec 4, 2012

(quoted from post at 13:28:40 12/04/12) i don't have mine handy to look at.. and dout i have opened it in 10ys.. but I do recall mine having ts.. mine may be a 98 or so revision.. can't be much newer than that..

i think I'd make mine a cotter nut if it wasn't already..

The problem with changing to a cotter pin and castle nut style is that you have to change the spindle arms, because they angle up more, to allow for room over the axle for the thicker castle nut. And also change the TREs. There is no reason for me to change to that style, as long as I can torque the regular nut correctly, to keep it tight. :wink:

R Geiger · Dec 4, 2012

(quoted from post at 23:25:48 12/04/12)

(quoted from post at 09:12:46 12/04/12) yes.. some manual revisions have more data than other.s
a standard sae torque spec chart copied and stuck intot he book will help.

on something like a tie rod end.. getting the pin seated and nut turned to a point that is tight and lets the cotter pin go in..that's all i've ever done..

Click to expand...

Only the later 8Ns have the castle nut and cotter pin. My '51 just has the nut.
I have got some additional torque specs for the 8N that I found and printed off and stuck in the book. I guess I need to print off standard torque specs for the bolts/nuts that aren't specifically addressed in the book and/or charts and put in there as well.
Seems kinda stupid to put torque specs in some manuals, then remove them in later revisions. With mine being a '95 copyright, I would think it should have one of the most comprehensive lists of torque specs of any of them....but I guess not.

I have a 2007 I&t FO-4 shop manual and it is somewhat lacking in torques. What it does have is inserted into the section where you are working. I see nothing about the tie rod nuts. My 50 has plain nuts and my 52 has castle nuts. Standard torque values if nothing is shown is always the rule of thumb.

TheOldHokie · Dec 4, 2012

(quoted from post at 10:25:48 12/04/12)

(quoted from post at 09:12:46 12/04/12) yes.. some manual revisions have more data than other.s
a standard sae torque spec chart copied and stuck intot he book will help.

on something like a tie rod end.. getting the pin seated and nut turned to a point that is tight and lets the cotter pin go in..that's all i've ever done..

Click to expand...

Only the later 8Ns have the castle nut and cotter pin. My '51 just has the nut.
I have got some additional torque specs for the 8N that I found and printed off and stuck in the book. I guess I need to print off standard torque specs for the bolts/nuts that aren't specifically addressed in the book and/or charts and put in there as well.
Seems kinda stupid to put torque specs in some manuals, then remove them in later revisions. With mine being a '95 copyright, I would think it should have one of the most comprehensive lists of torque specs of any of them....but I guess not.

I'm sure the 2004 OEM shop manual for my Ram truck has a torque specification for the tie rod stud nut. I have never thought I needed it or looked for it so that is just an educated guess.

Now if I was given the job of programming the robotic tool that was going to nail it down on the assembly line at the factory I would have demanded it from the engineering department. And if I was also asked to author the tie rod service section in the shop manual I would almost surely have put it in knowing that 99.99% of the tie rod end service that was ever going to be performed on 2004 Ram trucks was going to be done without looking it up.

Heck, modern manuals will give you a torque spec for just about everything from head bolts down to the #4 machine screw that holds the nameplate on the steering wheel. Robots always need a number - humans not so much.

TOH

souNdguy · Dec 4, 2012

oh i'm sorry.. you must not have read the phrase the way I typed it.

I said I'd 'make' mine a cotter nut. I didn't say I'd dismantly the entire tracotr and swap out all the parts till it had the oem parts from a later vintage that were cotter fromt he factory....

'making' one simply involves a small high quality drill bit and a cotter key and a lil out of the box thinking.

no wrench or parts changing required.

skyhiranger · Dec 4, 2012

(quoted from post at 13:58:40 12/04/12) oh i'm sorry.. you must not have read the phrase the way I typed it.

I said I'd 'make' mine a cotter nut. I didn't say I'd dismantly the entire tracotr and swap out all the parts till it had the oem parts from a later vintage that were cotter fromt he factory....

'making' one simply involves a small high quality drill bit and a cotter key and a lil out of the box thinking.

no wrench or parts changing required.

What you typed can be taken two different ways.

I don't think swapping over to a cotter pin style requires "dismantling the entire tractor", if I were to choose to swap out to the later parts. :roll:
Making it a cotter pin style is easier said than done, IMO. The regular nut is about 1/4" thick and when tightened is pretty much flush with the end of the TRE. So to cut notches for a cotter pin would make the nut pretty weak, IMO. I guess a couple of holes could be drilled in the nut and the cotter pin could go through the nut and through the TRE stud. Then again, there are 100s of thousands of Ns out there that have the non-cotter pin style TREs, so I don't really see it being worth the trouble, or really much of a benefit, to "make" it a cotter pin style.

souNdguy · Dec 4, 2012

though I havn't done so on an N.. I have drilled nuts on other machines to add a retainer or cotter pin.. just takes a good, small drill bit.

they fact you've had 4 posts about a tie rod end makes me think that your thinking about it way too much.

it's not that big of a deal..

skyhiranger · Dec 4, 2012

(quoted from post at 14:41:29 12/04/12) though I havn't done so on an N.. I have drilled nuts on other machines to add a retainer or cotter pin.. just takes a good, small drill bit.

they fact you've had 4 posts about a tie rod end makes me think that your thinking about it way too much.

it's not that big of a deal..

LOL, yeah, I probably am overthinking it.
I went out and torqued the TRE nut to what I thought it should be. I'll keep an eye on it, but it should be ok, from what I am hearing from you guys.
Thanks for the info.

souNdguy · Dec 4, 2012

it should be fine.

I'venever lost a tre nut on anything but 1 machine.. a small farm CUV type vehicle. A ford lugnut fit it perfectly.. and that is what is on there.. been 10ys now.

With all my tractors I redo the tre's.. even if only to disassmenle and clean / service. I've never used a torque wrench on them or anything.. never lost one.

did find one on my 541 offset that was more than 3/4 wqay weaton thru that just had a small band of threading on one side where someone had dished rims in and ran truck tires and it wore the nut in two almost. and even that dad bern thing stayed on..

good luck.. you'll be fine.. and if it comes off.. stick another on..t he pin should hold it solid anyway...

Why does my FO-4 manual suck?

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