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PTO generators

A

Awlknottedup

Member

What can anybody tell me about the PTO driven generators? I have a 29 hp tractor with a three cyl Diesel engine. Would a PTO generator be cheaper to run than a stand alone gas or propane generator? I am looking at the 7500 Watt range of stand alone.

Winter is coming with the possibility of ice storms and I will be down for several months with leg and knee operations.
 
With your condition. I would go with a standby unit. Kohler and G E make the best at this time.You can have them set up with a transfer switch. So that you don't have to do anything if power fails. They will do it all for you. Cost a bit but worth it.

Stay away from Generac. Poor quality,expensive parts.Poor if any service.
Cummins/Onan Poor quality,very expensive parts and poor service.
 
Brother has a PTO generator, but in a blizzard snow will blow into the generator and short it out as the whole unit has to sit outside.

In your case, an enclosed stand-alone with automatic transfer switch would work best. Check out the price or the transfer switch and cost of having an electrician install it correctly - sometimes that can cost almost as much as the generator.

As the man said, avoid Generac.
 
Can you get by without your tractor in an ice storm? I know I sure wouldn't want to have to uncouple my tractor from a generator every time I need to pull a stuck vehicle.

7500 watts is on the small size for a PTO generator. If that's all you need, then a portable unit is probably more practical. Your tractor will be lightly loaded at 7500 watts and won't be delivering its best fuel economy. Probably still cheaper to operate than a gasoline unit, though.

How much power do you really need? If you intend to run an electric range or heat pump, You'll need a lot more than 7500 watts and a PTO unit will start to make sense. But if you only need to run a refrigerator, well pump and lights, then 7500 watts is overkill. A portable unit gives you a lot of flexibility, and of course nothing beats a dedicated standby unit for convenience.
 
Like any other type a PTO generator may or may not be the best for you. Some of the disadvantages have been noted however there are some advantages to PTO generators. Per KW they will be cheaper to purchase, quite a bit cheaper if powered by same quality diesel engine as your tractor. As compared to any other fuel it will operate cheaper on your small diesel tractor. This can amount to CONSIDERABLE $$$ if the power is out for a days at a time. You also have the advantage of one less engine to maintain year around for a few hours, maybe none, of usage. Gasoline should be your last choice for fuel. Do you already have propane or natural gas on the property? Then thats another cost to add for a stand alone unit. Just some additional food for thought.

The best/handiest PTO installations I have seen have the generator head inside a shed next to an outside wall. A small opening is cut out of the wall for the shaft and when needed the tractor is outside where it should be. The head stays inside out of the weather where it should be and it is hard wired to a transfer switch as it should be.
 
I have both and they are 20KW. The standby generator is nice, because you do not have to hunt around in the cold and dark to setup the generator. I also have the standby generator hooked to 1000 gallon propane tank so it can run for a long time. It is a pain to fill up the tractor tank every 8-12 hours.

I would get a bigger generator than you need, the cost is minimal at the time.
 
If you already have a tractor, a PTO generator is nice to have for backup. The problem with stand-alone generators is they often sit for years without being run. Often when they are needed, they won't start.

In my area, those that have PTO gens say the biggest problem is all the people who want to borrow them when power is out.

I've got a 17KW pto gen I paid $500 for maybe 20 years ago. My 32 horse tractor runs it easily when powering my house. But I've also run my house on a 4400 watt gas driven generator. I just had to be careful not to let two big appliances run at the same time. My 3/4 horse, 220 volt well pump is a pretty big draw.

If you are really looking for a back-up system, your choice of fuel is the big issue. If power was out for two weeks and you could not buy gasoline - do you have something at home to use? If you had heating oil or farm-diesel on hand, you'd be all set IF you had a diesel powered generator. If you've got a big LP tank, an LP generator makes sense. Same with natural gas if you are on a pipeline.
 
Personally I would go with the PTO generator (been looking for decent priced used one for a couple years). As mentioned below most likely your tractor will start while the engine on the generator may not after sitting for a year.

But if you are going to be down with leg an knee operations are you going to be able to get around in an ice or snow storm to set up a PTO generator?
 
Your tractor would play with a 15KW and handle a 20KW just fine.
Go with a larger 20 KW pto generator so you don"t have to run around flipping breakers or reminding the wife and kids not to turn on every electrical device in the place on at once.
7500W is just a toy that will apply low voltage and low frequency to delicate and fussy electronic equient . When ever a motor starts.
Assuming you have a proper transfer switch? There are 10KW transfer switches that install under the electrical meter. And units the same size as your electrical service. I"ll send a link next time when on the home computer.
 
I built my pto generator. Got the alternator from harbor freight, sprockets and pillow blocks from ebay, drive shaft from Central Tractor (yea, I've had it awhile) angle stock was stuff that was laying around. My Kubota B7200 makes 14 hp at the pto, so I can get about 6 or 7 KW out of it before the tractor runs out of steam. This one is for 858 rpm pto. I've built other ones for 540 pto, but it requires a speeder (intermediate sprockets) to get to 3600.
a85393.jpg
 
If your tractor is much larger than is needed for the generator, and the tractor has 2 speed PTO, 545 and 1000 RPM. Set the generator up for 545 RPM, and use the 1000 RPM output from the tractor and run at engine at the speed needed for the generator for 545. The tractor will burn far less fuel that way.

Dusty
 
No. The chain drive is not in an oil bath. Ever see a bicycle or motorcycle with an oil bath? Me neither.

And no. No guard on the drive shaft, just the sprockets. If I needed it much, that might be worth considering.
 
Tractors aren't designed to be run at low speeds for
extended periods and they likely won't be the most
fuel efficient at low speeds either when under load.
 
Looks like you have never observed a pto accident scene or ever talked to the injured party or the widow, depending.
Many motor cycles are belt or shaft drive. Wonder why they changed?
 
Ever wonder why all high performance and racing motorcycles use chain drive? Shaft drive is less maintenance but uses more HP. A good chain set up works for many applications.
 
Rain and snow being drawn into the cooling vents of a generator doesn't bother them. Unless the generator insides are covered with a thick layer of mud and manure dust.
I seen an open case, air cooled 200HP 600V motor running just fine completely submerged. Never even tripped the thermal or instantaneous protection. No ground faults either.
 
There is a need though isn't there??? At what moment does an accident happen?? Bad thing about a PTO accident it just doesn't sever or cut a limb off it pulls it off!! And like any accident it doesn't happen it's caused! I must say "there was not much thought in your reply! If you're building them for others I hope you have builders' risk insurance!
 
A small Deere 1020 tractor with a 152 cubic inch diesel runs at half its rated efficiency when only being worked at 9 horsepower. At that load it uses 1.2 gallons per hour of diesel fuel.

A typical 9 horse gas powered AC generator at full making 5500 watts uses 1/2 gallon per hour of gasoline.

So where I live with diesel at $4.36 per gallon and gasoline at $4.10?

Deere diesel on PTO generator makes 5500 watts of power for 1 hour at a cost of $5.23

Portable gas powered generator makes 5500 watts for 1 hour at a cost of $2.05
 
Something you may want to consider is some generators won't run certain hi-tech gas furnaces. So look at what you want to power up. Make sure the generator clean enough to do what you want.

George
 
(quoted from post at 17:56:58 10/11/12) Tractors aren't designed to be run at low speeds for
extended periods and they likely won't be the most
fuel efficient at low speeds either when under load.
Click to expand...

Did you ever cultivate corn when the corn was no more than 2" tall ? Tractor would run all day at idle speed 1st. gear.

Dusty
 
Tractor probably slobbered enough you could fill 5
gallon buckets with the goo. Diesels are made to be
worked not idled excessively. A gas engine is better
suited to run at lower speeds and lighter loads.
 
i doubt it is a cleanliness issue.

power generation as a science.. hasn't changed much in the last 100 years.

magnetic fields and balls of wire.. and some mechanical energy..

sine wave on a good brush or brushless genny is darn clean.

voltage stabilization and freq stabilization.. now that is an issue.. etc.

also.. having enough capacity to start large loads.. especially ones that take many times their rated run current at inrush.

i have a 12.5k pto genset that I have run with a variety of fords including a lowly 8n....

having a crisp governor, and rating laods for pto hp is the big issue.
 
(quoted from post at 16:27:22 10/11/12) If your tractor is much larger than is needed for the generator, and the tractor has 2 speed PTO, 545 and 1000 RPM. Set the generator up for 545 RPM, and use the 1000 RPM output from the tractor and run at engine at the speed needed for the generator for 545. The tractor will burn far less fuel that way.

Dusty
Click to expand...

Great advice when considering a PTO generator matched to your tractor's hp. If you purchase a generator with a gear box requiring 540 input rpm and you are using half or less of the rated output of the generator, switch your tractor PTO to 1000 rpm and reduce your engine rpm. Great way to save fuel when you're not using the rated output of the generator.
 
Soundguy,
About 15 years ago, I know a man who bought a new gas furnace and he couldn't get it to work on his generator. Not a PTO generator. It would work just fine on, but not on a generator. He was upset. He thought the HVAC company that installed the furnace should fix his problem. This may have been an isolated problem, but there was definately something wrong with the genny. A gas furnace will only use less than a 1000w for the blower, very little for the electronic brain box.
George
 
Not true. Many smaller generators do not make power that will run sensitive electronics, battery chargers, etc. This is common knowledge in the solar-electric industry. That because anybody living with solar off the grid must use backup generators to charge battery banks when the sun isn"t around. Years back it was just a battery charger issue. But now - there are home furnaces, washing machines, driers, smoke alarms, etc. that will not work off of many portable generators.

The general "rule-of-thumb" is a portable AC generator will not make perfect power. A portable DC-to-AC generator will, and most larger permanent mount generators will.

Like I said - this is common knowledge among those that work with this stuff. One common "fix" for smaller generators is to use pricey step-up transformers - but they are rarely worth the cost and do not always do the job.
 
You are 100% correct. It is a common problem. Mostly caused by low-voltage peaks in the sine-wave with cheaper and/or smaller generators.

If using a portable generator - the "inverter generators" usually have no issues. It's just the standard AC generators that have problems.
 
I more or less agree with your numbers.... but I'd gladly pay the extra for the diesel. I've spent enough time cleaning ethanol infested carb's in snow/wind/rain and darkness all to get that damn little generator running. The last time.... I said F*** IT. Went and got the Magnate, hooked a shaft to it and made power. It's noisy. It's not very efficient. It's certainly not pretty.... but it works.... and I'm in the house, warm and dry.

Rod
 
(quoted from post at 14:32:16 10/13/12) I more or less agree with your numbers.... but I'd gladly pay the extra for the diesel. I've spent enough time cleaning ethanol infested carb's in snow/wind/rain and darkness all to get that damn little generator running. The last time.... I said F*** IT. Went and got the Magnate, hooked a shaft to it and made power. It's noisy. It's not very efficient. It's certainly not pretty.... but it works.... and I'm in the house, warm and dry.

Rod
Click to expand...

You can say that again.
 
i've been messing with electronics for decades. All I can say is it should be MUCH easier to get sine wave off a ball of wire and mag fields.. than stepping dc to ac using an inverter.

i've seen some old upsonic square wavy bat backups burn up ferro ressonant power supplies.

on the flip side.. the 'sensitive' electronics you mention.. nowadays are not that sensitive.

take you average computer. it uses a switching power supply based on triacs. you can feed it a HUGE range of voltage.. many will accept 90-300vac and 48-62 hz easilly.

common knowledge in the solar off grid people seems to differ from common knowledge in the electrical engineering people ;)
 
I'm not surprised.

I have a 6500w genny at work that won't run a 2500w MAX rated well pump... it takes the 8500w genny next to it to start the pump.

on the 6500w genny, we have a meter on it.. voltage lagged to 208 at startup..

many inductiove loads can take MANY MANY imes thier rated run current to start.

soundguy
 
(quoted from post at 05:29:35 10/13/12) Not true. Many smaller generators do not make power that will run sensitive electronics, battery chargers, etc. This is common knowledge in the solar-electric industry. That because anybody living with solar off the grid must use backup generators to charge battery banks when the sun isn"t around. Years back it was just a battery charger issue. But now - there are home furnaces, washing machines, driers, smoke alarms, etc. that will not work off of many portable generators.

The general "rule-of-thumb" is a portable AC generator will not make perfect power. A portable DC-to-AC generator will, and most larger permanent mount generators will.

Like I said - this is common knowledge among those that work with this stuff. One common "fix" for smaller generators is to use pricey step-up transformers - but they are rarely worth the cost and do not always do the job.
Click to expand...

I have posted this before and I'm stilled puzzled, and it's been a while so I'll post/ask again.

One summer day we lost our power and I learned that it was going to be off for 2 or 3 days. So I got our '03 motor home with a 4000 watt Onan generator out.
I wanted to run 3 things. 1- our medium sized freezer/refrigerator, 2- the 1/3 hp. 120 volt well/water pump, 3- the water heater, that is a gun fired LP, it uses very little electricity, just a small combustion fan and the 24 volt gas valve.
I opened the breaker panel and removed the wires for the water pump and refrigerator each off their breakers, and tailed them out and put the tail on a male cord cap. And brought a neutral wire from the neutral bar to the cord cap, and plugged them into a cord straight from the generator. Both the water pump and refrigerator started and were running. I then went to the shop to get a short extension cord to reach the water heater. When I got back with the cord the water pump had come up to pressure and shut off, the refrigerator was still running. I plugged the water heater in and the generator shut down.
The generator would run the pump and refrigerator, or the pump and water heater, together but NOT the refrigerator and water heater together. Why ?
I even tried reversing the hot and neutral on the water heater it does not matter which is hot and which is neutral, but they still would not run together.

The water pump is plumped with plastic pipe.
The water heater has copper pipe run under ground to the LP tank.
A year or two years later the refrigerator quit.
I've wondered if maybe the refrigerator had a leak to ground and drained to ground through the LP copper line, and the generator sensed it ?

Any other theories ?

Dusty
 
All it takes is some "real world" testing to prove the existent problems with many small generators.

One simple one is to take a conventional lead-acid battery charger. Most portable generators cannot run such a charger properly. A typical 30 amp charger can often only charge a max of 10 amps when hooked to the typical portable AC generator. I.e. 1/3 rated capacity. Yes - this is common knowledge for those that have had to deal with this problem.

I've tested over 100 combinations of different make chargers and portable generators. Just about all the portable AC generators had problems. All the DC-AC "Inverter" generators had few-to-no problems and worked almost as well as grid power (I tested ETQ, Honda, Yamaha, Honeywell).

There are "electronic" battery chargers that tend to cost around twice what a conventional shop-type charger costs and they can handle just about any sort of AC input current and still make rated charge output. Iota, Xantrex "True Charge", etc.

One of the problems with most portable genertors is the low voltage peaks. Typical grid 120 VAC peaks at 170 volts at each end (zenith and nadir) of the sine wave. Many portables when set to make 60 cycles peak at 150-160 volts. Most shop-level batteries chargers are designed to clip the peaks at 160-170. Thus the problem.

Also note that all permanent mount "home backup" type generators I've tested worked fine. This is an issue mostly with smaller AC generators and as I said - NOT with small "inverter" generators.

Then there are other issues - both with small portable generators, modified wave inverters and some low-end inverters sold as "true sine wave." These include problems with small chargers (screw guns, cell phones, etc. ), electronic furnaces and washing machines, smoke/CO hardwired alarms, and some GFIC outlets that humm like crazy with less-then-perfect power.

We could talk electric jargon ad nauseum. All that counts in my world is what actually happens when you hook something up and try to use it.

As the other poster stated - yes indeed there are some newer appliances/furnaces that do not work well with some portable AC generators.
 
i guess you guys have just cornered the market on buying junk gennies then?

I havn't ran out and bought a genny that made less than 5500w um.. ever.. so havn't t4sted any of those. Most of the stuff I'm working with is 8500-24kw.

I take that back.. I have used a small 1k propane genny .. but that was an inverter type...

I've seen stepped sine wave issues with gfci, and ballasted devices. Have seen none with triac power supplies. Have seen meltdowns with ferro resonant PS.

My guess is solar / off grid people are using extremely low wattage devices and / or gennies then.

seems a solar to battery to inverter setup migth be better. i see inverters in t he 3-5k range have DRASTICALY dropped in price in the last 5 ys..
 
No, not "junk." The portable generators are fine for most everything. I assume few people use them for charging car batteries, cell phones, screw-guns, etc. And if they did - unless doing a controlled test - would not even notice the bad performance. That is, unless an automatic charger would never shut off or it overheated.

I've been buying, trading, installing gens for 30 years and have many kicking around. Some 50 years old and some 6 months old.

The people who live off-grid with solar power, batteries, and generators are often the ones that notice when things are not working "up to snuff."

Battery charging was the only big issue until the past few years. Now - standard appliances like washing machines, driers, gas furnaces, etc. are sometimes using electronic control boards that ARE sensitive and problematic with less-then-perfect power.

Just to be clear - I've never had a problem with a PTO generator. All I've ever messed with make good power when run at the correct speed. The only generators that typically have the problem is the portables. Generators sold as "home backup" are usually certified or tested to make clean power. Portable generators are usually sold as tools to power tools and little else. The inverter generators are the exception. I recently tested a cheap Chinese ETQ 1800 watt inverter gasoline generator. I paid $225 for it brand new. It makes near perfect sine-wave power and at any RPM. I find that surprising since I cannot even buy a stand-alone sine-wave inverter for less then $400 - and the better ones run over $1000.

Back to the solar industry - many are building their own DC 12 volt "bulk chargers" from auto alternators. They are the most efficient and cheapest way to charge battery banks. I just built a unit that charges over 100 amps for less then $200. New 7 horse Chinese engine, used 130 amp alternator and a home-made special regulator. The auto regulators like found in Delcos will not charge a battery bank properly. They taper off the voltage way too soon. A special regulator can be built with $30 in parts.
 
You may be doing it the hard way on the regulator.

I also work in electgronics, including the 12v automotive level.

the delco 10/12 SI alts.. you can get them with reg modules that will top out as high as 14.7 cor common applications.. and for special applications I believe I have seen 15.1v regs.

At that point all it takes is a little creativeness witht he external sens line and a variable resistor and then a cheap mosfet or 55 driven timer circuit to deliver higher charge votlage. We are talking 5$ in parts.. not 30$

BTDT.

I hit the dump and find push lawnmowers that have bad wheels, beat decks, etc.. but a good engine.

have made a couple lawnmower battery chargers simply making a frame on the old mowers deck and some pullies and belting. looks kinda funny.. and the couple i built aren't osha certified due to open belts.. but they sure make a hack of a battery charger ont he cheap.. especially since a delco 10si is about 30$ from autozone!

One I made i left on the lawnmower deck wheels and all... was good to take to tractro shows.. push it over to people that needed a chargeup.

set a car battery on one side of the deck and add some wireing and it's a good jump / fast charge platform on the cheap... er.. cheaper.. that was back when the walmart 'yellow' grade of batteries' was still about 50$.. they have gone up quite abit now...

if you can get the engine cheap, you are most of the way there. I do see the 5-6ish hp chinese engines going from 89-99$ on sale now and then.

very tempting to get one to play with...

soundguy
 
I've seen many done with a rheostat. The Delcos (or any others) with internal regulators in stock fashion are not programed to charge deep cycle batteries that have been deeply discharged.

Rheostat works fine. So does the automatic charger if someone wants one. All it takes is:

Integrated Circuits
LM723 Voltage Regulator, in 14 pin DIP
NE555 Timer, in 8 pin DIP

Transistors
Q1- 2N2222A or eqiv. NPN
Q2- MJE 2955, or any PNP with Ic>5 Amps., heatsunk

Diodes
D1- 1N914 or equivalent
D2- 1N1202A, or any 3+ Ampere diode, heatsunk

In regard to engines - I've got older small engines all over the place. Many with breaker-points that require maintenance (or upgrading). I have a bunch of 4 horse cast-iron Kohlers, several 7 horse cast iron Wisconsins and a few Hondas and Subarus. But - I couldn't resist the brand new 6.5 horse overhead-valve engine from Harbor Freight for $99 shipped to my door. Cast-iron cylider sleeve, ball bearing mains and very light.
 
99$ shipped? i agree.. now that's a deal.

I see from your parts list you are doing something similar to me. just calling for a higher charge voltage for an extended time. I've made one with a comparitor circuit as well.. but it required too many components. the cheap one I have done with a VR and a irf511 mosfet and capacitor and push button momentary switch was a simple 'set and forget' timer tickler.. oh yeah.. has a 12v reed relay in there too. back inthe day, that was my 5$ one. I take that back.. that one toot 2 vr's once for the mosfet timer circuit.. and one for the adjustbale tickler circuit.

that was back when you could hit radio shact and buy the bulk assorted packs of components. like bulk chokes, bulk vr's.. relays..e tc. unit cost went way down then.. could do a 5$ circuit with 2 2$ components, and then "1$" worth of a few other componets from a couple bulk packs.

them days are gone.. onlnie dealers only now..and shipping eats you alive for small batches... :(
 
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