Tell me what I need to know about cattle

I currently have 40 acres I am haying. I have done good to even break even with this joke making oat hay which is great hay but I find that most farmers just don't want to pay for it. By the time I figure all the planting, baling, loading, delivering, etc, WAY too much time that people seem to expect for free.

The only reason I have not considered grazing is due to soil compaction. I would like to learn more if I should really be concerned?

As well, I have considered both buying cattle or just grazing the ground. Oats are ready here in late May/early June. I know a LOT of farmers just make hay for their cattle. I am finding that selling the crap is ridiculous and really don't want to repeat the mistake.

My family has run cattle for generations but my dad got out of it and probably will not help me much other than tell me what I am doing wrong. I know a lot of guys just that just hot fence and area and get it going.

I would also consider horses but I am not looking to build and shelter and such. Just want to find more efficient way to sell hay rather than all the loading BS.

I should note that I do realize the potential issues with running cattle and I always said I WILL NEVER have live stock. Not sure yet but I have to find a better way...

well im sure you know cattle is a 365 days a year job while you only make hay a few months a year why not forget the oat hat and just do a grass mix?you could also do round bales lot less labor involved and lot cattle guys like it better you would still have to put hay up for winter for your cattle and when one gets out good luck which brings up the insurance issue seems to me if your looking for the less work route cattle wold not be it just my 2 cents

I tend to agree which is why I was thinking about grazing lease.

However, regarding the hay products, I was growing oats specifically because is one of the very few that is very aggressive very early and locks out weed competition. I need a solid early spring product that people will buy.

I sold quite a bit to horse owners. Zero problems but I am done selling 1-2 bales at a time. I only do round bales. Was running a 4x5, thinking of having the neighbor make it in 4x6s this year to reduce bale count and stay legal width.

i agree 1-2 bales is not worth opening the barn doors those seem to be the pickiest people too go figure some horse people are so hard to deal with dont blame you there maybe you could start oats as cover crop to a alfalfa mix only thing sucks with a mix you cant spray for weeds it will kill either grass mix or the alfalfa if you do the oats as cover to keep weeds down alfalfa mix may establish itself well enough to keep the weeds down itself if there is some weeds dont let them go to seed and you should be able to keep them to a minimum good luck also a straight alfalfa crop could get you a new market with dairy cattle or dairy goats and you could spray it for weeds 2-4d would work and you could always have a custom operator do the spray shouldnt be a lot and once its established good it should choke out weeds good hope this helps

Not sure where your are located (or if it makes much difference) but around here the only people that have any use for oat hay is horse people and not too many of them. If you don't want to deal with horse customers you probably need to stop raising oats.

I graze i buy calves in spring off a
grazer .put up hay on shares .i strip
graze hot wire front and back like
green chopping. by grazing first crop
is them mostly baled and set aside
second crop i get more and third is
eather grazed or stockpiled. so
between stockpiling and hay put up
on shares i can feed through the
winter if the ground is open i graze.
its an easy relaxing job i get cash
and meat in the freezer.had one
woman had same cattle as i had
exept she corn finished gave her
some of my steaks she cooked them
together with hers didnt tell her
family about the differance nobody
noticed expet she did on finish cost.
one other guy looked at my setup
and had a little pasture so i hooked
him up with a dealer i know and he
would look for started calves he
visits a lot of sale barns and was
able to get him the odd ones the
single calves some that got pushed
out etc cattle that needed time and
space plus good feed and in the fall
sells them back.if feed gets short he
well sell early so no winter work its
a project and buying from a
experanced dealer helps. it pays the
taxes.where are you located several
good workshops around here sw
wisc

What is a reasonable fee to graze the ground rather than bale it?

As well, is anyone here knowledgeable on soil compaction from cattle?

I never had trouble with compaction with
grazing trails or paths that can be managed
there are several crops that can loosen up
ground (red clover is my favorite). as for cattle
lease what does ground rent for in your area ?
divide by number of head you can run. on
poor ground i can run 2 steers per acre per
year. check with local county agent

I am considering mixing the oat product with peas this year which should bump my protein content to around 14-15%. That is night and day better than most grass hays. I know cattle would do great with it but not sure if the finicky horse folks would go in. I was just reading where horse owners say if the oats are "too green", horses won't eat it. WTF? Seems to be about the same color from T1 to maturity to me....

Probably need to understand WHEN it is cut.

I did not see any oat/pea hay advertised this year so maybe that can separate me? I am still tossing the ideas of small squares but then you are most certainly into horse owner area...

ive done some round but mostly small squares youre definitely gonna get more horse people with small squares and as you know they can be pretty finicky i have been thinking about going all rounds as it has become a hassle with some people if you do go small sq. a accumulator is nice or better yet an automatic bale wagon other than that it seems thats all you do is handle them kickers and kicker wagons are nice but you still have to unload them ggrrrr

Why not plant and alfalfa/orchard grass mix? Can you plant the entire acreage?

1. I am trying to stick with annuals right now because some of the ground will be converted for another use.

2. I believe Alf/Orch would be a specific horse blend and I am not sure I want to limit production to just picky horse people.

Yes it is good for horses, but believe me cattle will eat it big time. If it tests out the Dairy farms will gobble it up also. Keep the og down at 10%.
I average about 3.75 T per Acre per year. Average price of $200/T. About $100/AC input costs for P&K and some pesticides.
Try to make that with 4$ corn.

If the market is not cooperating with the product
you have, produce the product the market wants.
Hay is a tough business, there is always someone
who will do it cheaper. In fact, it really doesn't
matter what the crop is, if you are chasing the
bottom its going to be a tough sell. Go after the
top, yes you may have to deliver, deal with small
orders, etc but price it as an add on.

As to cattle, right now its an expensive game to
play and buying in on the high side of the cattle
cycle is a gamble. It may pay off, it may not.
I've watched people buy in at 1.35 and sell at .80
more times than not. Your risk is in death loss,
feed costs, and price spreads. The cattle complex
can unwind faster than you can sell.

Next question is stockers or cow calf. Depending
on your location that's anywhere from 2 to 4 cow
calf pairs on 40 acres in good grass. Compaction
isnt a big issue but I dont know your soils and
rainfall so thats just a guess. With horses, you
be, cows with a cloven hoof, normal freeze thaw
generally breaks that up pretty nicely except for
paths. Even then its not deep compaction.

In any case, be it hay, cows and calves, or
stockers it is a multi year business with a multi
year learning curve. I've made and lost small
fortunes in both the hay and the cattle business
in any given year. Over time, which in my case is
33 years since my first go of it at 13 years old
there have been more good years than bad. Stockers
I never liked, too much money out all at once with
too much risk of everything from lightning to
market swings to pneumonia. Its hard to lose real
money with hay in the barn or momma cows. You may
have to sit on it a long time, but over time it
always has balanced out for me. Stockers got to go
when they got to go, you might give or take a
month but they are eating the whole time. In a
sense corn and beans are that way too. Its a lot
harder to keep them in a bin for 2-3 years than to
keep baled hay in the barn. It never fails, every
few years someone will have an epic drought, be it
Texas, Colorado, or up north. When they do,
someone will pay top dollar for pretty much
anything with twine on it, loaded on or in a semi
trailer.

It doesn't matter what you do with the land,
really. Find something you like, that will sell,
and that you can make unique and better than the
competition. Realize that its more than just
something to do, to make money by your own hand
and skills takes a lifestyle investment.

Look at the dollars in and dollars out. Best
advice I ever got, ever was "everyone wants to
make a million dollars once, that takes luck; but
any da-- fool can make a dollar a million times."

Gordo gives wise words on the alfalfa. Its hard to
beat, in good years and bad.

I am curious to ask those more experienced with hay products, is this about the time hay price should swing upward? What irritates me is I have reduced price to less than half of what I WAS getting and has been sitting for months and just within the last week or two, it looks like I am going to get cleaned out and move close to 100 bales dirt cheap. I feel I should have ramped my price right back up around the first of the year. I would bet around Feb things will look even better for sellers.

Problem is I am still seeing people advertising Alfalfa locally for around 130/T. Shocking!!! I was getting more than that on oats in Summer last year.

Thats one of those 'it depends' things. There are
a lot of people who have outside stored hay which
will, for all intents and purposes, have no value
come grass time that are willing to sell now at
break even. Plus, outside stored just doesn't
travel well long distance, even net wrapped,
drivers cuss it because it doesn't stay strapped
tight. Also, bale width makes a huge difference.
As much as 3 months ago I could buy really nice
5x6's delivered to me for less than what I charge
to custom roll a 4x5. So, I buy 5x6's to feed
myself and sell my 4x5's.

So, in plentiful hay years most places you see a
split. Good hay is trending upward. Cheap hay is
trending downward. If we have a late spring it
should all trend up, early spring it will all
trend down. Typically, I've found my best months
for sales to be July, January, and April. As to
price, I don't discount, ever, once its set for
the year that is what it is. I lose the tire
kickers and bargain shoppers but that's ok. I'd
rather have a dozen clients buying 200 to 600
rolls a year, year after year than a six thousand
clients buying 1 roll each and wanting to push me
on price, comp delivery, or give cash discounts.
The people I want to sell to want a reliable,
consistent, reasonably priced supplier of the hay
they want delivered when they want it.

You would be right on"some" horse people Back in
England they used to say save a horse shoot the
owner L.O.L, "Some" of these people have no clue
about animals, feeding them and looking after them
properly.

let someone else deal with the ones' that think
they are big shots with a horse. and think you can
own, board or look after and feed one properly
cheap. Seen some of these guys give the $4000
horse and equipment away when reality or tough
financial times hit!.
Regards Robert

(quoted from post at 17:32:49 01/19/14) Thats one of those 'it depends' things. There are
a lot of people who have outside stored hay which
will, for all intents and purposes, have no value
come grass time that are willing to sell now at
break even. Plus, outside stored just doesn't
travel well long distance, even net wrapped,
drivers cuss it because it doesn't stay strapped
tight. Also, bale width makes a huge difference.

Click to expand...

I agree barn stored hay is more valuable & has more eye appeal. I disagree that hay stored outside has "NO VALUE" if cut,baled & STORED outside properly. Hay baled correctly with good protein will still retain a large % of that protein stored outside at least where I live. I've bought some hay earlier(five 18 wheeler loads) that was baled in 2012,stored outside that hauled just fine. I sold the hay to some not so picky horse owners and all the horses lived without a trip to the vet. Tightness and shape of bale goes a long way in quality of hay and ease of hauling/hauling

On outside hay storage it amazes me that some of my neighbors stack hay with row sides touching or worse in pyramids or under trees.

I wouldn't mess with oat hay anymore.
1. its not really all that good of hay.
2. you got a limited market for it.
I think you answered your own question about having cattle. I'm not going to advise you to do something you don't wanta do and now is not a very good time to get into cattle.
I would advise you to raise alfalfa hay. It is a productive crop that you can put up more than once a year (3 to 4 times in my area). Once it is established it will last several years and if a thick enough stand you wont have any weed problems after the first year. All grazing livestock owners can use alfalfa. sheep,cattle,goats,horses. Alfalfa ussually is worth more than any other kind of hay. There is one thing though. You gota be on the ball getting it put up and put up right. If alfalfa looses its leaves, it will be junk hay. All the protein is in the leaves. But all and all I think alfalfa is a way better way for you to go.