Doubt organic yield?

Everyone should check out the Rodale Institute website. They have some hard evidense that organic farming can compete with conventional yields. Then if you figure in lower input costs and net profit is way better as organic even at slightly less yield. The only catch is you can't grow corn on corn organicly make any kind of crop. So I do think overall corn production would be down, but it wouldn't be long before more acres come on line to pick up production.

Your thoughts?

What's Rodale Institute and what's their agenda? Who funds them?

Go to their website and make your own opinion. I believe it is a good bunch of people.

do they show a complete budget for the organics? The price of diesel and iron keeps going up..

Animal and some of the others are better able to talk about organic than I.

I like our current system, where we have both, and our country is wealthy enough to keep both types of channels available.

Organic systems limit the options available, and so obviously lead to less potential yields. Limit the types of fertilizer, the types of weed control, and the types of insect control, and there _will_ be more crop loss. That's a no-brainer.

Your message is perhaps the very sort that causes friction & issues between ardent organic folks and regular farmers.

Because your message is wrong.

Organic systems are not so adaptable to moderate or poor soils. They depend upon starting with a good rich soil, and importing organic material from other land to 'sustain' them.

Conventional farming is better able to use poorer soil and create a stable, reliable food source.

That does not make either type of farming 'good' or 'bad', and frankly they have much much more in common than the small differences.

Crop rotation, cover crops, manure use, and so on are very hot topics among conventional farmers, and well used in either type of farming in the USA.

What becomes a burr in the saddle is when the hard core organic folk - typically those not really in farming - come along with som sermon about how much more rightious and producting and better for all mankind is, totally ignoring the facts in front of us all, with little understanding of how faring works.

It becomes a religious pilgramage for some of those people, and one I find harmful to farmers and mankind.

Your message is the bginnings of such a 'see the light' type of crusade.

Folks lik Animal and many others on here do a good job farming in the way they choose, and providing a product to their customers that is a good value for both sides. Nothing wrong with that, we all should do so well.

We don't need to badmouth the other side, we have much more in common than what we have differences. We face the same problems from a un-informed public.

I believe in the long run, the hard-core, uninformed crusaders of 'organic' ways will do more harm to the organic growers too.

Anyhow, enough of my soapbox.

I think what you say is incorrect. I think organic works better on small, hand-picked pieces of property, but yilds a bit less because it has less options. Conventional farming produces more food more dependably year after year, which is important in a world where folks are getting nervious about their food supplies.

Room for both ways tho, and I encourage that to continue, with support for good organic farmers everywhere.

--->Paul

I searched Ask.com. Here's what I found. Seem to be about as fair and unbiased as PETA,HSUS,PCRM,you name it. They have an agenda,and they aren't afraid to show it.
Heres who they are

I"m not at all interested in a battle here, and I do support organic farming for those who choose it.

I"m offering NO dog in this fight, but if you"re going to offer this as evidence for your cause, you might want to check out some of the skeletons in Rodales closet.

Acording to Wiki,the founder died in a car accident in Moscow. Makes you wonder,that's all I'm saying.

Very well said Paul, Thank You!

The only thing I'll add is that I could support it wholeheartedly for those who can do it well IF some of the practitioners of it didn't promote it by totally denigrating conventional agriculture and basing there marketing completely on scare tactics.

I respect your rely and am certainly not in a crusade for organic farming. It's just I chose for myself and I certainly have nothing against conventional farming. I have a chance of picking more acres next year it will be farmed conventional I can't justify investing that much time and energy into rented ground until I get more time and knowledge under my belt. And yes I will put down whatever my agronomist says for top notch yield. If the landlord is interested in a long term deal then I would consider it, but I will not push the issue.

Sometimes I don't think people don't give new things a fair chance. And if I am wrong I will be the first to ask for my plate of crow! In the near future I don't think conventional and organic will be far apart. Both realize the benefits of cover crops, rotations, minimum tillage, etc. And with growing resistance to herbicides, conventional guys are rethinking some of their strategies.

I did not mean to start a fight here. I was just looking for opinions for AND against. Sorry if I offended anyone.

Eastfork, please don"t apologize, you"ve done nothing wrong and have done everything right as far as I"m concerned.

You have a point of view. Mine"s somewhat different and we"ll sit here and kick them both around without having to create any point of contention that needs an apology.

I"ve been watching, living, and working near Rodale programs most of my life and whatever favorable points of view I have about organic farming or meat production is in SPITE OF anything that"s come out of the Rodale institute.

Keep it coming.

Ron

could u give me some "other" info i should know about Rodale. I want to make sure i have the right idea about them and haven't been buffalo'd. I haven't heard of anything bad yet, and i do keep an open mind.

rr, show me a nonprofit group that promotes its beliefs in a big way that is not totally full of sh!t! I am very interested in their row crop program using cover crops and the crop roller and as far as the rest of it goes I take it with a grain of salt. If you want to see a real joke check in on their forums, nothing but spam. If I was pushing for an agenda of sorts I believe I would clean up that mess and get some real discussion going such as we have in this forum..

I appreciate everyone's opinion and insight. The only reason that I do not care for Rodale is the fact that they operate off of grants. If you want to make a believer out of me you need to make it work off of your production income.

Nothing wrong with having an opinion. As long as we seem to be having a good conversation - and agree both conventional and organic have their place, I'll go through your list with my thoughts.

> They have some hard evidense that organic farming can compete with conventional yields.

Organic yields can be good, but often they choose the better land to use, while comparing to conventional farming on all acres, good & bad. It becomes a hand-picked winning sample vs a generic average. Little biased for a conclusion of which is 'better'.

>Then if you figure in lower input costs and net profit is way better as organic even at slightly less yield.

My understanding is that organic fertilizers cost more per unit of N, P, or K because they have to be special, and the seed I see in the catalogs is always more expensive. More diesel is used to control weeds, and at least for me it woould cost more transportation to haul the crop to market. All of those things seem to make an organic crop more input costs, not less?

If we were all forced to return to organic farming - not something you prepose, but I hear it often enough from some groups - then the premium price paid for orgnic products would disappear, and you would need to survive on the low-ball commodity grain prices. I think in your own interests, you wouldn't want that. You only get the premiumif organic is a small portion of farming.

> The only catch is you can't grow corn on corn organicly make any kind of crop.

Turns out, corn on corn ends up being pretty good for the ground - if you live in a climate that notill/ multch till works on. Carbon and soil organic matter grows in a corn on corn setup. While it uses more N, the corn on corn has some positives, too. I'm as blown away by that as anyone. Now I'm not saying corn on corn GMO is _better_ than organic farming - but perhaps there are some benifits to it that the organic crowd doesn't see as well?

> So I do think overall corn production would be down, but it wouldn't be long before more acres come on line to pick up production.

We don't owe the world - or the USA - cheap corn & cheap food. Much of the starvation in this world is caused by politics, not a lack of food. In the USA we throw almost 1/2 our food away. Nonetheless, many of the emerging, improving countries of the world are dependant upon importing a good portion of their food from other countries. India, China, Northern Africa, Japan, parts of Europe. If we were to do something to cut food supplies in the world, I think those mid-level countries would get in a panic, and have the ability to create some havic or retaliation....

And that is how I think your points are just a tad off. There are many folk - I now not you - that try to use those points to create some sort of world vision of how we all should life to their standards, and if only we would conform to their ways then the whole world would be milk and honey.

Again, I'm not ranting against organic at all. I kinda like it - if we can keep an open mind about all of it.

--->Paul

theres some very good producing organic farms near here- excellent yields of sunflower, mustard, thistle, foxtail ect. (all considered weeds around here) With respect to some of you doing a good job there's no way I would let my farm look like they do around this area.

Heyd, I hear ya! Last year was the pitts for me because it was so dry that I only got to cultivate once. I too had some foxtail and such and it just could not be helped. But in those fields this year I planted wheat frost seeded with clover so I can clean it up some before I do another row crop in that ground. In a normal year if those fields look like that it is because they are lazy. With good rain fall and a rotary hoe and cultivator I can make my beans look like round up ready. It takes work, and a tractor that is good on fuel to make it all come together. Thats why this no till cover crop has my attention. If I can make it work I feel like I can double my row crop acres by not living on that 50 John Deere and cultivator...

I truly believe in the organic practices, but unless you operate both styles of farming all you are doing in making uneducated guesses. The fact of the matter is that both styles have good and bad points. Both sides have good and bad land stuards. Unfortunately there will always be people that are in it for the almighty dollar. These are the people that you have to ignore. All they do is cause issues for both sides. I believe that both sides can learn from each other and should be happy to help each other for the simple fact that you are both there to make a living and raise your family to the best of your ability.

low input costs?
You have to be kidding.
Ever priced organic seed? Not just OP seed but certified organic...
Ever priced pelleted duck manure? Or any of the fancy organic certified stuff you need?


Rodale is usually pretty good stuff, I have been reading their mags since the 70's.
I'm sure they pad their reports but overall they do provide some food for thought.

Know a guy south a ways who's trying some sort of cover crop no till by crimping the cover crop before planting, his yield was less than half of the neighbors conventional fields and he admitted it. Even had the organic gurus out helping set up the whole thing......

Their "studies" have a predetermined conclusion. It's simple....Start with the end result you're wanting to promote and work your way backwards to selectively place "facts" in such a way as to support your agenda. Having been a part of a couple University studies while completing a soil science degree program, I've seen it done. Simple as taking skewed "facts" and placing them in a proper sequence to validate your opinion... We did two seperate "studies" (on GMO crops in this instance) , based on same facts, and presented two polar opposite conclusions.


Long story short, you can paint a picture to look like whatever it is you want it to look like.

I think implementing all available tools leads to success, for both the farmer and the consumer. I like having the option to spray a crop if I need to, not because its the correct Big Ag thing to do, I also think that its all about preserving your own flexibility, I see the organic thing as having as much if not way more control of what I do than Monsanto. I look at it like this, If I can save money by doing something like they did 50 years ago I will every time, but If I can prevent a loss by using the technology of recent years I will. I guess you could say Im a farmer that is concerned about nature, soil, water and my wallet. Who on this forum can fault me for that?

Seems to me part of the greenie revolution. Awful lot of extra work for the return But it seems like the od story. Figures lie, and liars figure. I can't stand bean counters!

my opinion for what its worth,and ive been to the extremes both diretions.had a uncle i farmed with that was 100% organic from day one and if you even mentioned doing otherwise you better get ready for a fight.Worked with others who were 100% the other way.all did pretty good in their way of farming.myself I guess im in between sort of. I'll farm organic way if possible,but if i think a crop needs it I have no problem working in some commercial fertilizer.same way with spraying if the bugs are eating my crop,i wont wait a second to get the sprayer out.I do believe in organic farming ive seen it work,and i use all of the practices i can on my place,but if it comes down to my family or the bugs eating they better get ready for an insecticide bath!i even tried it both ways one year on the same feild.in my case corn farmed the conventional way,had a better yeild.

I have grown crops organically and conventionally

Couple of things, it is possible to have organic crops out yield conventional ones at times, the average will be below conventional in most cases however.

Organic principles can have a bigger effect on ground that is of low quality in the medium to longer term.

Organic works by increase soil fertility, and sound agronomic practice.

Personally bringing in organic manures at high cost does not seam like a good idea.

If conventional farmers used many soil improvement methods and used chemicals is a better fashion they would make more money.

It's great to be retired and watch the whole hearted intrest by all parties involved in this great discussion to identify differing opinions.
You all should be diplomats and this has been one of the best threads to date.
Thanx!!!
Larry NEIL

UMM I'm seeing lots of posts on here that don't add up so ill just tell you how my operation works and my yields and you can judge.

I have all my ground on a 6yr rotation. for example 60 acres divided into 6 10 acre fields. in field 1 is new alfalfa with a cover crop of oats. field 2 corn field 3-6 alfalfa. i sell my hay to a local organic dairy. the corn i save some and sell some the oats i combine off and feed to my live stock and bale the straw then generally i get 1 light cutting of hay before winter but then then next year the alfalfa really takes off. the corn and oats feed our 250 chickens, my 6 Berkshire sows. the hogs are semi pastured and the chickens are house march-November in portable coops on old running gears then December to mid March the live in 2 of our 20x40 hoop houses. the manure from the animals goes on to the corn ground and when i plant my corn i use a compost tea and fish emulsion this combined with the alfalfa that was turned under as a green manure plus alfalfa fixes 200lbs of nitrogen a yr per acre. i don't have to add any thing else. no chemicals or pelatized duck poo. i cultivate 2-3 times and side dress again with the compost tea and fish emulsion. at first my yields were not so good but after 5yrs of adding compost and manure there getting better my best yield this year during the drought was 133 bushel per acre and worst was 117. but on another organic farm that i work on they got 165. the more organic matter you add to the soil it helps the soil drain in wet years and retains in dry years. the organic material minimizes nitrogen loss. yes my seed is expensive and it is more work and i do have to cultivate but. most inputs are from on farm resources and are sustainable. and organic prices at the elevator are LOTS higher than standard grain. even my pork we deliver 10 hogs a month to a coop who sells the pork through various grocers and farms markets by the cut and my cut is still close to 4$ a lbs per cut. and selling hogs every month gives me a consistent cash flow. our chickens bring close to 10000$ profit. at 3-4$ a dozen retail that is after expences and the coops share taken out. we compost every thing from our scraps from our 5 acre market garden to the lawn clipping wich we mow with a bagger and and to the pile every thing gets composted and put right back in the soil. my big expences off farm are seed, fuel, fish emulsion fertalizer (its not that expensive).

so from my farm i have found that yes i can get the same yield and make more money and it is more work. In order to make an organic system work you can not just be a corn farmer or just a wheat farmer you have to have a bit of everything. you have to feed cow what cows should eat they are designed to eat grasses. pigs should be pigs not confined on concrete where the disease runs rampant and have to be vac just to stay alive and the manure becomes a toxic waste. if we copied natures design and followed and intensive rotational system. we would not have to buy chemicals, or processed fertalizer, or patented seeds witch is ridiculous, no vaccines for the livestock no hazardous manure sludge slurry stuff, and since most of my acearge is hay no need for big giant 400hp tractors. and you make more money. we are in the next few yrs going to be adding a goat dairy and selling goat cheeses. and be for you laugh our goats give 200-260 gallons of milk a yr but i can run 12-15 per acre were i could only pasture 1 cow on 2 acres here and 1 gallon of goat milk will make 1lb of a cheese called chevre (Its my favorite) and it sells for 32$ a pound. now do the math. so i think it will fit right in with our system.

Hoosierhog, How do you fertilize your alfalfa? You make no mention of cattle that graze it or eat the hay. You only mention selling all your alfalfa. How do you replenish the potash and phophate it removes? It would be interesting to see some 5-6 year soil test results and the progression of the fertility levels since becoming "organic".

My compost operation takes up 3 acres it gets spread on all fields 2 times a year. I also spay all pastures and fields with a compost tea even the yard. Right now we sell the execss hay to a organic dairy here locally. But we are going to be adding a goat dairy to our operation. We will sell cheeses. There are organic P K fertilizers but so far I haven't needed them. I will if I need to but my compost operation seems to be working.

Very interesting! What do you compost and where do you get it? Do you have an idea of the nutrient analysis of the compost "as spread"? What rate do you apply the material?

I compost every thing we bag the yard clippings we rake tree leaves and add them, goat bedding and waste hay(goats wast a lot, they eat the alfalfa leaf shatter and just pick at the stems). when I clean fence rows we chip all trees that will break down like pine, we use the ashes from our 2 wood stoves and the ashes from several neighbors stoves, in the fall i go around town and pick up all the bagged leaves that people set out for the city to pick up. I have 2 land scape companies that bring me all UNTREATED yard wastes. I will compost anything that i can get my hands on. My current system my manure is limited supply since my livestock spends as much time on pasture as possible so i save my manure for my corn fields but goat manure is a cold manure and does not need to be composted and its hard to collect so it goes to the main compost piles.I used to go on Craigslist and find adds for free horse manure and bring it in my the truck load but its not certain to be clean of antibiotics and not pre certified organic so now that we are in the process of organic certification I dont think i can continue to use it. i aplly about 3 tons to the acre of compost to all alfalfa fields and 5-6 tons to the acre of composted manure for my corn fields. her is some good info on organic fertalizers and compost

http://vric.ucdavis.edu/events/2009_osfm_symposium/UC%20Organic%20Symposium%20010609%2003%20Mikkelsen.pdf

Do you turn the compost piles daily? The compost tea that you use, how do you make it?

i turn the piles every other week or so
and i made my own compost tea processor but you can buy ready made ones i spent 700$ on mine and i can process 300gallons and i have a 1000 gallon storage tank. i use a 300gallon 3pt sprayer and i just put it in the liquid fert tanks on my planter i also add a fish emulsion fert when i use it in my planter. here are a couple links. if you want a more detailed explantion of how it works and how to build a compost tea processor just google it. that's how i got the info to build mine. also my system is not big enough i have to brew multiple times and fill my storage tank multiple times to spray every thing but it works.

http://www.rittenhouse.ca/asp/Product.asp?PG=1179

http://www.vortexbrewer.com/ga2/?gclid=CLn326-Hpa4CFVGFQAodhkxdTA#

http://corvallisfarmer.blogspot.com/2010/10/building-compost-tea-brewer.html