Hey guys, looking for some insight as to what's going on here. This is my first year planting anything at this location. The land was a hay field, last planted with anything 25+ years ago. Anyway, I plowed it under and disced the crap out of it. I brought a soil sample down to the local mill. The ph was 5.8, so he sold me some lime and I applied it how he told me to (of course I can't remember how much). Anyway, way back in the spring we planted a large vegetable garden, 1/4 acre of sweet corn, a very large patch of pumpkins and gourds, and a large patch of buckwheat for my fiance's bees. The yield we've gotten is pathetic. Nothing grew... The corn is a foot tall. The pumpkin plants have 3 leaves. The beans are 2" tall. Only about 1/8 of the buckwheat germinated. Our peas did ok. All our squash just decided to grow 2 weeks ago, it's looking ok, but the neighbors is enormous. I sidedressed a lot of the stuff with some 10-10-10 (at the advise of the mill owner) a month ago and it seemed to help, but everything is still in sad shape. This season is pretty much a loss at this point, but what do I need to do to fix it for next year???? Thanks in advance!
- Thread starter 4x4
- Start date
By the delayed germination it makes me wonder about weather conditions, temperature, seed bed quality, compaction, and water. The fact that nothing grew points to macro conditions not lime and fertility, particularly with pH in the high 5's. Thats not great, and definitely needs adjusting but not enough to cause germination problems. If their is a fertility issue, my first guess would be the decomposing hay sucked up all the available nitrogen. What did the P and K test out? When was the grass plowed under, discing? Rototiller? Any restrictions to the root zone?
I don't know where to get an actual soil test...any suggestions? The local mill can only test Ph. I plowed everything under in the spring before anything started growing. I then disced the snot out of it then finally rototilled everything before planting. The soil was nice and fluffy when we planted.
The germination wasn't all that delayed. It's after it germinated it didn't get any bigger.
Call your local University extension office... they can guide you to someone who can perform soil analysis.
was that straight 10-10-10... or was it weed n feed 10-10-10? Did you water it in after applying it? I am assuming this was granulated.
Lot of weed pressure? Turning under sod or a pasture without pre-burn down will probably result in a LOT of weeds in a short time.. especially if you cut all of that quack grass apart with the disc...
greenbeanman in Kansas
Well-known Member
What sort of rainfall did it get or did you use irrigation of some sort? What does your area normally get for rainfall?
What area of the country you are in might give us some hints as to cause. Maybe I just missed it.
What area of the country you are in might give us some hints as to cause. Maybe I just missed it.
Bob Bancroft
Well-known Member
- Location
- Aurora NY
Some years ago I acquired some more rental ground that I thought would be dynamite. It had a long history of being farmed by multiple generations of successful farmers. It had been all pattern drained(by hand) probably 150 years ago. It is higher, lighter, drier soil than what I own.(which is all beneficial here). The last few decades it had been left to grass/pasture.
I planted field corn and red kidney beans. The mistake I made with the corn was not putting on the normal large amount of nitrogen. My hope that it wasn't necessary backfired. It was a pitiful crop. We had raised beans for years, regular, the newer shorter season ones, treated, untreated, home grown seed- all with no difference. Well, wrong again!- the bugs decimated my bean stand.
If I ever start in on an old sod again I'm going to hit it with everything I've got.
Now that you've started-keep at it. Till it well. Get the fertility where it belongs. It will get progressively better.
I planted field corn and red kidney beans. The mistake I made with the corn was not putting on the normal large amount of nitrogen. My hope that it wasn't necessary backfired. It was a pitiful crop. We had raised beans for years, regular, the newer shorter season ones, treated, untreated, home grown seed- all with no difference. Well, wrong again!- the bugs decimated my bean stand.
If I ever start in on an old sod again I'm going to hit it with everything I've got.
Now that you've started-keep at it. Till it well. Get the fertility where it belongs. It will get progressively better.
Ok, we're getting there. Quick pH tests check water pH, not totally useless, but almost. Buffer pH is the key, it measures the amount of acidity (hydrogen ions) that are bonded to the soil particles but can go into solution quickly. Water pH almost always underestimates lime, and since pH is a log scale, very small differences in pH can have very large differences on lime needs.
You local branch of the Cooperative Extension Service can help you with soil testing. It may be listed under your state university, your local county government, co agent's office, extension office or several others. They can have your sample analyed and make P, K, and lime recommendations.
My second concern is about 'discing'. It is very easy with a disc to create a layer of compaction if the soil is too wet. Too wet doesnt mean too wet on top, it can be perfect. Too wet is at the layer where the disc blades edges run. Best quick check is by pushing a soil probe in the ground. If the soil gets tight down where the disc ran in a band its a compacted layer. Thats a mess unless your ground freezes below that layer. If you get freeze thaw that deep, its a non issue for next year. Every year I have to fix one or two fields for someone that gets a little too happy with the plow or chisel plow and gets a layer too deep to freeze out. Fall plowing, deep, below the layer and leaving the ground without discing can fix this too, if erosion isnt an issue.
You local branch of the Cooperative Extension Service can help you with soil testing. It may be listed under your state university, your local county government, co agent's office, extension office or several others. They can have your sample analyed and make P, K, and lime recommendations.
My second concern is about 'discing'. It is very easy with a disc to create a layer of compaction if the soil is too wet. Too wet doesnt mean too wet on top, it can be perfect. Too wet is at the layer where the disc blades edges run. Best quick check is by pushing a soil probe in the ground. If the soil gets tight down where the disc ran in a band its a compacted layer. Thats a mess unless your ground freezes below that layer. If you get freeze thaw that deep, its a non issue for next year. Every year I have to fix one or two fields for someone that gets a little too happy with the plow or chisel plow and gets a layer too deep to freeze out. Fall plowing, deep, below the layer and leaving the ground without discing can fix this too, if erosion isnt an issue.
Old Ford Mechanic
Well-known Member
Get your soil sample through your local County Farm Extension Service Office. Lime work worked into soil will need about a year to benefit the ground.Follow the recommendations from the soil sample closely.I plant sweet corn with fertilize in the row with the seed.Then after it gets about 12 to 16 inches tall i side dress with ammonia nitrate and plow it to the row just before a rain.Beans need a little nitrogen but not a lot.Peas will grow and make with little nitrogen.Squash and cucumbers are grown easily.The biggest thing is to keep the weeds out.They will absorb the moisture and nutrients from the ground and deprive the vegetable plants.You will have to stay after them to keep them out.Lots of folks use chemicals for weed control but,nothing beats a plow and a goose neck hoe.Pumpkins and melons are tempermental as they do better some years than others.Trial and error is the way most people learn.As they say,there is more to wearing a hat than just putting it on your head.
Matt from CT
Well-known Member
Where abouts are you?
Much of the northeast -- and many other areas -- had an absolutely horrendous year even for well established gardners.
Someone starting gardening for the first time in my area would have been very easily fustrated! Too much rain, too little heat.
kyhayman has a lot of good advise -- get a lab soil test done (probably cost about $10) through the extension service.
There's two other things you can do yourself to evaluate your soil.
One is the mason jar test:
http://www.finegardening.com/how-to/articles/hows-your-soil-texture.aspx
That gives you an idea of the amount of organic matter in your soil (it'll settle out on top of the clay/silt/sand).
Another test you can do is assess soil structure by making a ball with your hand -- see this link under "soil structure:" http://gardening.about.com/od/soil/a/GardenSoil.htm
You said it was a hay field, was it being sprayed with broadleaf herbicides in the past that may still have had traces that were retarding the growth of your vegetables? If it had clover or alfafa, you're probably fine...but if it was just grass it could be a concern.
My guess is the best thing you can do setting up for next year is to get a big heaping load of manure delivered and plow that in this fall to give your organic matter a big boost and let it rot in the ground over the winter. That should give it a nice goosing for next year.
Much of the northeast -- and many other areas -- had an absolutely horrendous year even for well established gardners.
Someone starting gardening for the first time in my area would have been very easily fustrated! Too much rain, too little heat.
kyhayman has a lot of good advise -- get a lab soil test done (probably cost about $10) through the extension service.
There's two other things you can do yourself to evaluate your soil.
One is the mason jar test:
http://www.finegardening.com/how-to/articles/hows-your-soil-texture.aspx
That gives you an idea of the amount of organic matter in your soil (it'll settle out on top of the clay/silt/sand).
Another test you can do is assess soil structure by making a ball with your hand -- see this link under "soil structure:" http://gardening.about.com/od/soil/a/GardenSoil.htm
You said it was a hay field, was it being sprayed with broadleaf herbicides in the past that may still have had traces that were retarding the growth of your vegetables? If it had clover or alfafa, you're probably fine...but if it was just grass it could be a concern.
My guess is the best thing you can do setting up for next year is to get a big heaping load of manure delivered and plow that in this fall to give your organic matter a big boost and let it rot in the ground over the winter. That should give it a nice goosing for next year.
Matt from CT
Well-known Member
Where abouts are you?
Much of the northeast -- and many other areas -- had an absolutely horrendous year even for well established gardners.
Someone starting gardening for the first time in my area would have been very easily fustrated! Too much rain, too little heat.
kyhayman has a lot of good advise -- get a lab soil test done (probably cost about $10) through the extension service.
There's two other things you can do yourself to evaluate your soil.
One is the mason jar test:
http://www.finegardening.com/how-to/articles/hows-your-soil-texture.aspx
That gives you an idea of the amount of organic matter in your soil (it'll settle out on top of the clay/silt/sand).
Another test you can do is assess soil structure by making a ball with your hand -- see this link under "soil structure:" http://gardening.about.com/od/soil/a/GardenSoil.htm
You said it was a hay field, was it being sprayed with broadleaf herbicides in the past that may still have had traces that were retarding the growth of your vegetables? If it had clover or alfafa, you're probably fine...but if it was just grass it could be a concern.
My guess is the best thing you can do setting up for next year is to get a big heaping load of manure delivered and plow that in this fall to give your organic matter a big boost and let it rot in the ground over the winter. That should give it a nice goosing for next year.
Much of the northeast -- and many other areas -- had an absolutely horrendous year even for well established gardners.
Someone starting gardening for the first time in my area would have been very easily fustrated! Too much rain, too little heat.
kyhayman has a lot of good advise -- get a lab soil test done (probably cost about $10) through the extension service.
There's two other things you can do yourself to evaluate your soil.
One is the mason jar test:
http://www.finegardening.com/how-to/articles/hows-your-soil-texture.aspx
That gives you an idea of the amount of organic matter in your soil (it'll settle out on top of the clay/silt/sand).
Another test you can do is assess soil structure by making a ball with your hand -- see this link under "soil structure:" http://gardening.about.com/od/soil/a/GardenSoil.htm
You said it was a hay field, was it being sprayed with broadleaf herbicides in the past that may still have had traces that were retarding the growth of your vegetables? If it had clover or alfafa, you're probably fine...but if it was just grass it could be a concern.
My guess is the best thing you can do setting up for next year is to get a big heaping load of manure delivered and plow that in this fall to give your organic matter a big boost and let it rot in the ground over the winter. That should give it a nice goosing for next year.
What did you do to control weeds?
Grass weeds will sap the snot out of the stuff you tried to grow.
What Ky said too - disking a lot will make a very hard layer about 4-5 inches deep in the ground - right where the new roots want to go. The surface might look great, but at 5 inches deep - your disk could easily have created a hardpan your roots couldn't get through.
Decomposing vegitation will tie up Nitrogen as it rots. That nitrogen might become available again about now. But it was _not_ available to your plants in spring - the rotting process tied it up.
So.... how much N did you add to feed your crops?
P & K test will also likely show one of those as very low. Abandoned hay fields useually go low on one of those 2.
So, you might have had a terrible hardpan, you probably were low on a bit of P & K, Weeds took over, the lime probably took 6 months to start working so the ph of the soil was still low until about now, and you had almost no N in the soil available to your crops until about now.
Add in a less then good spring, and - no surprise the crops didn't do well.
--->Paul
Grass weeds will sap the snot out of the stuff you tried to grow.
What Ky said too - disking a lot will make a very hard layer about 4-5 inches deep in the ground - right where the new roots want to go. The surface might look great, but at 5 inches deep - your disk could easily have created a hardpan your roots couldn't get through.
Decomposing vegitation will tie up Nitrogen as it rots. That nitrogen might become available again about now. But it was _not_ available to your plants in spring - the rotting process tied it up.
So.... how much N did you add to feed your crops?
P & K test will also likely show one of those as very low. Abandoned hay fields useually go low on one of those 2.
So, you might have had a terrible hardpan, you probably were low on a bit of P & K, Weeds took over, the lime probably took 6 months to start working so the ph of the soil was still low until about now, and you had almost no N in the soil available to your crops until about now.
Add in a less then good spring, and - no surprise the crops didn't do well.
--->Paul
Southtowns27
Member
...
I can see all of that happening for sure. I think you nailed it. Ugh. I'm located in Western NY state. We had the coldest July ever and the rainiest in 86 years. That sure didn't help.
Also, I want to stay away from fertilizers and herbicides as much as possible. My well is downhill from where I'm trying to grow stuff and don't need any of that in my water.
Thanks all for the comments so far. Soil test is my next step. There's a guy down the road that has beef cattle. He's got a huge manure pile that I can take whatever I want from. Now I just need to find a spreader...
So, this fall, what do I do? Do I spread the manure first, then plow everything under and let it sit 'til spring? Then what do I do in the spring to make a nice seedbed?
Any time you are taking a crop off the field, you are removing N_P_K and micronutrients. Not a matter of opinion about being organic or not, or scared of adding commercial fertilizer- you are removing nutrients, and that is a scientific fact. Organic material can be a good source of nutrients, but it still needs to convert to the inorganic form before a crop can use it. Again, not opinion, but scientific fact. Discing is hard on the soil- it packs it too much. Most commercial farmers use a field cultivator to work the soil- it digs it up rather than creating a compaction layer, like a moldboard plow does. That"s why typical tillage is a disc chisel or ripper for primary tillage, followed by a FC. Seems like most on these boards think they should buy a tractor, plow, and a disc. Disc is meant for cutting up sod after plowing. 2-3 passes with a FC can do the same job, and not compact the soil.
You can decide how you wish to raise your crops.
I understand those who don't like to use pesticides. Killing insects, that can be some bad stuff sometimes. Killing weeds - not so much bad, but I understand it's a chemical that kills green stuff, and some might not be for that. I can understand.
I always am a bit confused by those who will use manure, but not commercial fertilizer.
The manure has a better chance of contaminating your well with bad bugs. The commercial fertilizer converts to the same exact N, P, & K that manure converts to. It has a tiny, tiny bit of salt in it depending on what type of fert you buy. It does not have the bad bacteria manure _may_ contain. Can't see the bad in fertilizer I guess for most situations.
Now, I think manure is a better fertilizer, offering more different nutrients and it slow-releases - so if you have access to it, I'm all for using that!
But - I get kinda puzzled on the fertilizer. You haul off N, P, K, and a very timny bit of micro nutirients when you harvest a crop. You need to haul that back on, and the crop won't care if it is a commercial product or a manure of some type. The crop just wants the right amounts available when it needs it. Source won't matter.
Anyhow, just opinion, yours & mine, so no big deal, your place do what you wish to do.
Here in MN, we plow in the fall to turn under the old crop & let it rot, let the ground dry out in spring so we can ge tinto it' the cold winter will help mellow the lumps; field cultivate in the spring to level the ground; harrow (aka drag) the ground to really level the ground nice & smooth (many field cultivators have a spring harrow on the back to do both in one step).
A disk used to be used in place of a field cultivator, but in our clay soils we found it left the top looking real nice, but packed the ground tight about 4 inched deep. The field cultivator will leave the top looking rougher, but it places the fine dirt in that 2-4 inch level right where we want the seed to be in the fine soil. You can use a disk instead of a field cultivator, but need to be careful of wet soils, and you don't want to go over and over and over with a disk. Once, possibly 2x is all.
Lime & manure and fertilizer is best to be put on when the ground is firm and you can drive without messing up the soil - it is usually a heavy load. So, in fall after the crop is off is often best. It is often best to work any of those into the soil fairly soon so they can get into that top 5 or so inches of soil & convert into something useful for the plants. Manure oactually washes off worse than commercial fertilizer, so we have rules in many states about getting it stirred into the soil within 24 hours or some such.
If you wish to avoid herbicides you will be playing a different game than the rest of us. You need to disk or field cultivate in spring; then after a rain or in a week, harrow the field. You don't want to see any weeds - the harrow will tear out the little tiny seedlings that are just starting to poke up. If you are lucky enough to have time to do that twice, a lot of the weeds in the top inch of soil (that's all a harrow really touches) will have sprouted and died, so you will have less weed pressure. If any of the weeds sprout & get big enough to see, you have probably waited too long & the harrow will not kill then any more. Oops.
After planting a row crop like corn or soybeans, you harrow about a week later, or when the corn is just cracking the surface - even a little spear of corn poking out. This will again kill the tiny weed sprouts, and will not hurt your corn planted 1.5 inches deep. (Your tractor tires need to match the row width and _not_ drive on a row...) Again, this is to kill the weeds you can't even really see, before they emerge.
There is a rolling harrow, or rotory hoe, that some use instead of a harrow after the corn is planted. You can use that a couple times, with a tad bigger corn even, and if you drive fast it flips out those little weed sprouts.
Beware: I don't know much about your other garden type crops, I'm only talking corn here!
Without herbicides, you need to cultivate or hoe the ground every week after planting (first time can be the harrow...). It doesn't matter if you see weeds. They are there, you need to destroy those little white sprouts. If you see 3 inch tall weeds - you've lost the battle. Pack it up for the year, your crop will be small. The weeds will outgrow the crop, even if you hoe or cultivate still 10% of those big weeds iwll escape & suck the sap out of your field.
I done it that way in the old days, how it was here in my part of the country. Without herbicides, you can't be lazy or put it off. You need a schedulae, & keep to it. Rain or not, you got to figure a way to go after those weeds in a timely fashion.
Just how it was 'here', and some of my opinion. Lots of room for doing it different, and other climate/ soil can be all different than 'here'.
--->Paul
I understand those who don't like to use pesticides. Killing insects, that can be some bad stuff sometimes. Killing weeds - not so much bad, but I understand it's a chemical that kills green stuff, and some might not be for that. I can understand.
I always am a bit confused by those who will use manure, but not commercial fertilizer.
The manure has a better chance of contaminating your well with bad bugs. The commercial fertilizer converts to the same exact N, P, & K that manure converts to. It has a tiny, tiny bit of salt in it depending on what type of fert you buy. It does not have the bad bacteria manure _may_ contain. Can't see the bad in fertilizer I guess for most situations.
Now, I think manure is a better fertilizer, offering more different nutrients and it slow-releases - so if you have access to it, I'm all for using that!
But - I get kinda puzzled on the fertilizer. You haul off N, P, K, and a very timny bit of micro nutirients when you harvest a crop. You need to haul that back on, and the crop won't care if it is a commercial product or a manure of some type. The crop just wants the right amounts available when it needs it. Source won't matter.
Anyhow, just opinion, yours & mine, so no big deal, your place do what you wish to do.
Here in MN, we plow in the fall to turn under the old crop & let it rot, let the ground dry out in spring so we can ge tinto it' the cold winter will help mellow the lumps; field cultivate in the spring to level the ground; harrow (aka drag) the ground to really level the ground nice & smooth (many field cultivators have a spring harrow on the back to do both in one step).
A disk used to be used in place of a field cultivator, but in our clay soils we found it left the top looking real nice, but packed the ground tight about 4 inched deep. The field cultivator will leave the top looking rougher, but it places the fine dirt in that 2-4 inch level right where we want the seed to be in the fine soil. You can use a disk instead of a field cultivator, but need to be careful of wet soils, and you don't want to go over and over and over with a disk. Once, possibly 2x is all.
Lime & manure and fertilizer is best to be put on when the ground is firm and you can drive without messing up the soil - it is usually a heavy load. So, in fall after the crop is off is often best. It is often best to work any of those into the soil fairly soon so they can get into that top 5 or so inches of soil & convert into something useful for the plants. Manure oactually washes off worse than commercial fertilizer, so we have rules in many states about getting it stirred into the soil within 24 hours or some such.
If you wish to avoid herbicides you will be playing a different game than the rest of us. You need to disk or field cultivate in spring; then after a rain or in a week, harrow the field. You don't want to see any weeds - the harrow will tear out the little tiny seedlings that are just starting to poke up. If you are lucky enough to have time to do that twice, a lot of the weeds in the top inch of soil (that's all a harrow really touches) will have sprouted and died, so you will have less weed pressure. If any of the weeds sprout & get big enough to see, you have probably waited too long & the harrow will not kill then any more. Oops.
After planting a row crop like corn or soybeans, you harrow about a week later, or when the corn is just cracking the surface - even a little spear of corn poking out. This will again kill the tiny weed sprouts, and will not hurt your corn planted 1.5 inches deep. (Your tractor tires need to match the row width and _not_ drive on a row...) Again, this is to kill the weeds you can't even really see, before they emerge.
There is a rolling harrow, or rotory hoe, that some use instead of a harrow after the corn is planted. You can use that a couple times, with a tad bigger corn even, and if you drive fast it flips out those little weed sprouts.
Beware: I don't know much about your other garden type crops, I'm only talking corn here!
Without herbicides, you need to cultivate or hoe the ground every week after planting (first time can be the harrow...). It doesn't matter if you see weeds. They are there, you need to destroy those little white sprouts. If you see 3 inch tall weeds - you've lost the battle. Pack it up for the year, your crop will be small. The weeds will outgrow the crop, even if you hoe or cultivate still 10% of those big weeds iwll escape & suck the sap out of your field.
I done it that way in the old days, how it was here in my part of the country. Without herbicides, you can't be lazy or put it off. You need a schedulae, & keep to it. Rain or not, you got to figure a way to go after those weeds in a timely fashion.
Just how it was 'here', and some of my opinion. Lots of room for doing it different, and other climate/ soil can be all different than 'here'.
--->Paul
Bill in NorthCentral PA
Member
If you have open area, you could clean it up and broadcast winter rye into this area. Let it grow this winter / early spring and work it in to add some humus to clay soils.
If you"re really not into chemicals, think abour crop rotations with rye (not rye grass), cheap red clovers, and crops.
Good luck,
Bill
If you"re really not into chemicals, think abour crop rotations with rye (not rye grass), cheap red clovers, and crops.
Good luck,
Bill
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