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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Hydraulic oil vs motor oil

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Randy-IA

01-15-2011 19:59:50
72.100.95.244



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Hi All. My local dealer of Oliver parts (20 miles away) suggested the other day that I could use SAE 20 motor oil (if I could find it) in my 1755 instead of type 55 hydro oil. Are they that similar or is/are there differences in the additives ? I'm using JD Hyguard now which is $20 cheaper per 5 gallons than type 55 not to mention the JD dealer is only 9 miles away. But times are getting tougher and I'm looking for an even cheaper alternative. I tryed the farm and fleet brand Harvest King but it was way to thick for allseason use. I'm NOT asking for application specific suggestions just the differences between hydro oil and motor oil. Thanks for any opinions on this!

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pkurilecz

01-16-2011 10:50:59
68.88.75.151



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 Re: Hydraulic oil vs motor oil in reply to Randy-IA, 01-15-2011 19:59:50  
Hello:

Generally hydraulic oil is what is called a bright stock mineral oil.

It is the precursor to motor oils which have additives for detergency (which keeps solids in suspension), viscosity index improvers (this is where the 'W' often comes from as in 10W-40), wear additives (such as moly and zinc to provide wear resistance on areas such as lifters on camshafts) and anti corrosion additives. It generally consists of medium to long chain normal paraffins.

Bright stock mineral oil prior to today's modern motor oils was the beginning point for the formulation of motor oils.

Today's 'synthetic' motor oils are still medium to long chain normal paraffins, but rather than being made by distillation from paraffin base crude oils they are synthesized to gain greater control on the chain length and degree of isomerization and branching.

That being said, an SAE 20 nondetergent with a rating no higher than SA or SB could be used as a replacement for a bright stock mineral hydraulic oil.

This could be used in a very antique tractor which is used for show.

But as another poster said, "You are going to save $200 on oil and spend $5,000 on a transmission repair?"

hth

pkurilecz

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Randy-IA

01-16-2011 11:39:47
72.100.149.134



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 Re: Hydraulic oil vs motor oil in reply to pkurilecz, 01-16-2011 10:50:59  
Thanks! Excellent answer. No attitude.



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Mike M

01-16-2011 08:21:48
72.251.100.133



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 Re: Hydraulic oil vs motor oil in reply to Randy-IA, 01-15-2011 19:59:50  
Put good oil in it and forget it.

But it sounds as though you must be using alot more then you should, is it leaking ? If so then fix the leaks.



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Randy-IA

01-16-2011 11:45:11
72.100.149.134



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 Re: Hydraulic oil vs motor oil in reply to Mike M, 01-16-2011 08:21:48  
Hi , Yeah it uses some oil from the service valves but the problem here was I replenished the last few times with Harvest King oil and when the temp dropped to near zero I was getting cavitation or bypassing (I don't know which) so I drained the oil and replaced the filter. The system uses 7 gallons so having an extra three gallons around doesn't bother me. I'll use it up sooner or later and with the way oil prices are moving again I'd rather stock up now. :*)

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old

01-16-2011 08:00:14
4.245.14.136



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 Re: Hydraulic oil vs motor oil in reply to Randy-IA, 01-15-2011 19:59:50  
Yep 20W oil works just fine if and only if it is non-detergent oil. If it is a detergent oil it will foam up and cause all sorts of problems and the reason your dealer said if you can find it is that non-detergent oil is getting hard to find



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Randy-IA

01-16-2011 11:51:47
72.100.149.134



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 Re: Hydraulic oil vs motor oil in reply to old, 01-16-2011 08:00:14  
Hey Old, Long time . I really wasn't gonna use motor oil but wanted to know the difference. I've been running construction equipment far to long to stray far from the makers recommendations. Gonna get really cold here in the next few days. I hope you are staying warm.



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old

01-16-2011 13:00:57
4.245.14.253



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 Re: Hydraulic oil vs motor oil in reply to Randy-IA, 01-16-2011 11:51:47  
A lot of the old tractors do in fact call for 20W oil in the hyd systems and some even 10W I know ones like the Oliver 77 did call for the 20W oil



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Randy-IA

01-16-2011 17:12:07
75.221.86.100



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 Re: Hydraulic oil vs motor oil in reply to old, 01-16-2011 13:00:57  
Hi Old, Yup my old M Farmall uses oil in the hydraulics but lets be serious those really old systems shouldn't be called hydraulics in comparison to what's here these days. Though in their day they were better than a screw binder. lol



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old

01-16-2011 17:56:51
4.245.8.80



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 Re: Hydraulic oil vs motor oil in reply to Randy-IA, 01-16-2011 17:12:07  
Wel they where hyds systems just low GPM and low PSI but they did the work and where by far better then that long handle with the hand grip to lift things with. Ya now days I use UTF in the Olivers and most other tractor as well that way one fluid fits most and I have less jugs of oil to worry about



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buickanddeere

01-16-2011 06:20:34
216.183.155.129



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 Re: Hydraulic oil vs motor oil in reply to Randy-IA, 01-15-2011 19:59:50  
Not all motor oil is wet wet clutch/wet brake compatible.Motorcycle engine oil sometimes is. Save $200 on oil and pay $5000 for a transmission rebuild?



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Randy-IA

01-16-2011 12:14:03
72.100.149.134



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 Re: Hydraulic oil vs motor oil in reply to buickanddeere, 01-16-2011 06:20:34  
Hi, The hydraulic system on a 1755 is a stand alone system though there are a couple of brakes and clutches in it- IE: the pto . The other driven unit is the PS. The brakes themselves are hydraulic actuated dry disc. The final drive is run in gear oil. The 3-speed is TF (dexron/mercon). And the fresh motor takes Rottella 15-40. My mistake was presuming the farm and fleet hydraulic oil was the right grade instead of doing more research. But I agree with you about the economics lesson. I just don't believe that type 55 is necessary when a lower priced hydraulic oil could be just as good. And with today's standards compared with 35+ year old standards I was looking for a cheaper alternative. But my question was more centered on what he said about the motor oil. I know now I wasn't clear about my intentions. I had no intention of following his suggestion but after re-reading my post I see that that could have been misconstrued.

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dboll

01-16-2011 07:41:15
64.61.211.161



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 Re: Hydraulic oil vs motor oil in reply to buickanddeere, 01-16-2011 06:20:34  
bd if you knew anything about an Oliver you'd know that the hyd. oil and trans./diff oil is separate, that said hygard, hytran, quick lift or any good universal- trans draulic fluid (jd 303 equivelent) will be ok, as for motor oil some newer jd const. equip. is using motor oil for hyd. oil, something about improved lube for brass bushings



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buickanddeere

01-16-2011 09:41:21
216.183.155.129



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 Re: Hydraulic oil vs motor oil in reply to dboll, 01-16-2011 07:41:15  
Motor oil is copper metal friendly and rated GL-1 or GL-4 for gear box protection. Motor oil with the MA or MA2 spec is wet clutch compatible.



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rustred

01-16-2011 06:54:27
74.200.18.155



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 Re: Hydraulic oil vs motor oil in reply to buickanddeere, 01-16-2011 06:20:34  
what about the older case's , their clutches all run inengine oil???



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Randy-IA

01-16-2011 12:35:23
72.100.149.134



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 Re: Hydraulic oil vs motor oil in reply to rustred, 01-16-2011 06:54:27  
Can't answer that, for that matter though the primary drive clutch in all the friction cranes I operate are run in diesel fuel- to eliminate all or mostly all slippage I guess. And for improved cooling in case of slippage since it's a pressurized system straight from the fuel tank with it's own filter setup and pump.



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James22

01-15-2011 20:35:41
207.179.239.124



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 Re: Hydraulic oil vs motor oil in reply to Randy-IA, 01-15-2011 19:59:50  
Generally hydraulic oils have more anti-foaming agents, possibly different or more anti-wear agents, which can be a benefit for most hydraulic systems. Also a few like Hytran can keep a relatively large amount of water in suspension, thereby insuring the pump/valve has at least some oil lubrication rather than occasionally ingesting only water. The motor oil detergents are not a benefit, nor are the additives which neutralize the combustion by-products. Personally I substitute Low-Vis Hy-Gard for SAE 10W hydraulic oil, and as you already do, use standard Hy-Gard for situations requiring a heavier hyd oil. But in a low pressure, lower flow system, most any oil will work satisfactory.

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Randy-IA

01-16-2011 12:50:23
72.100.149.134



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 Re: Hydraulic oil vs motor oil in reply to James22, 01-15-2011 20:35:41  
Thanks! I knew that about hydraulic oil but didn't know the real differences of the additives between the two. As for my system I don't know what is considered high or low pressure. My '74 1755 pumps 20gpm at rated speed of 2400rpm with a pressure setting at 2200 psi. Compared to an excavator that's low pressure but compared to other tractors in the same time period ....???



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James22

01-16-2011 19:45:33
207.179.239.204



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 Re: Hydraulic oil vs motor oil in reply to Randy-IA, 01-16-2011 12:50:23  
A twenty-two hundred relief setting is not a low pressure system. An 800-1000 PSI and perhaps 1500 PSI I would consider low. The 2200 psi might not be high pressure but certainly is considered in the medium pressure range and worthy of a good hudraulic oil. I agree with the others if going with 20W motor oil, get non-detergent, but I wouldn't go that route with this "medium" pressure system. I would use a good quality hydraulic or universal. hydraulic/transmission oil.

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Wisconsin Cowman

01-15-2011 20:10:37
173.53.237.44



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 Re: Hydraulic oil vs motor oil in reply to Randy-IA, 01-15-2011 19:59:50  
You can use the JD Hyguard for the hydraulic oil in your 1755. JD Hyguard is better then using the SAE 20 motor oil. Or if you have access to Cenex brand oil you can use quick lift hydraulic oil.



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Randy-IA

01-16-2011 13:04:38
72.100.149.134



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 Re: Hydraulic oil vs motor oil in reply to Wisconsin Cowman, 01-15-2011 20:10:37  
Hi, We used to be able to get Cenex but no more ...at least not nearby. I'm not comfortable using brands I'm unfamiliar with and by using the Harvest King I just reinforced that feeling. It was the first time I strayed from the type 55 or hygard in my tractor and it didn't work. I wasn't intending to use the motor oil but I did want to be able to understand at least the rudimentary differences if not the more technical ones too besides color and smell lol. I am looking for a cheaper alternative hydraulic oil though that I'd be comfortable with using and which is available locally. I'll continue using hy-gard in the meantime. I know it works since I'd been using it for years in all weather conditions. Momentary lapse in judgment. Just like a marriage ... if ya don't stray life will be good.

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Bob

01-15-2011 23:35:06
64.255.159.192



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 Re: Hydraulic oil vs motor oil in reply to Wisconsin Cowman, 01-15-2011 20:10:37  
Or, just simply ask for "UTF"!



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