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New propane school buses - what am I missing here?

J

JDemaris

Well-known Member
Our little town has basically gone nuts with spending - via the school budget. Our little town, where enrollment in the school has gone steadily down for the past 30 years, is now doing a $30,000,000 "upgrade." I'll be long dead before it's paid off. In fact, it will be falling apart before it's paid off. My only escape is to get the heck out of this area. The school vote was full for fraud. I know this because I witnessed it first-hand. NO IDs were taken, and many underaged and non-resident people voted - many more then once.
Note also - that State law for school budget votes suggests . . . but does not demand ID.

Now - more to the point. They are having a vote to buy new school buses that run on propane instead of diesel. The grossly-overpaid school boss just sent out a newsletter, explaining that . . . not only is propane half the cost of diesel, the State government will also kick in a 50 cents per gallon rebate on the propane fuel. So, buying these new busses is a "great deal" for all.

Expressed in BTUs - 1 gallon of propane = 84,300 BTUs, and 1 gallon of diesel =129,000 BTUs.

The cost per gallon has propane yielding 33,720 BTUs per dollar, and diesel yielding
41,206 BTUs per dollar. Propane is NOT cheaper by any means. We are in the Northeast where propane often cost twice what it does out west.

Now, take into account the fuel mileage. The newest technology bus running on propane
gets 4 MPG. The diesel version gets 8 MPG. What is the average cost to drive a bus 100
miles? The propane bus cost $62.50. The diesel bus costs $39.37.
How about the whopping 50 cents per gallon subsidy from the state for propane? That
lowers the price of a 100 mile trip down to $50, which is still more then the diesel bus.
That 50 cent subsidy must be renewed every year and may not last forever.

Add to that, the new propane buses cost more, AND the school has to install propane refueling equipment. Also, these buses won't be able to "leave home" too far, since NY has very few propane fueling stations.

My biggest beef is - the school and the people working there are supposed to be promoters of knowledge . . . not hype and ignorance. It seems all these school officials can see - is the dollar price for a gallon of propane is less then the dollar price of a gallon of diesel - and nothling else. In this case, the "gallon" means nothing. Only the energy bought per dollar is what counts.
 
Hello jdemaris,
Is that 30 with 6 zeros???? WAHOO!
What you are missing is a majority of votes to flush the idea down the toilet.
But it sounds more like a plan then an idea.
It would probably take a lot of time and money, besides a lot of supporters, to get this plan stopped.
I feel your amazement and anger. Hope the do something more illigal then the voting thing, and maybe then it will all be over.
Guido.
 
Same story here.New 5 million dollar school being built for 25 kids per class.What a joke meanwhile my property tax increased 4 grand a year.
 
I'd happily trade you the payments on our $60,000,000 (Yes that's 60 million) school buildings renovation program including our $3,000,000 PIAA approved sports complex. For your propane buses. Heck I'll even throw in the half dozen 'short buses' we have running the roads constantly. Even though most of the school administation should be riding them.
 
You know Jd Your letting this stuff get to you is not healthy. Your a brilliant guy and you don't need this heart attack causing aggravation.
You need to move or get over it,if thats what it takes. But the world has changed and us old horses don't adapt well. There is big coins and commissions and kick-backs involved. The decision was final LONG before any poll was taken.
 
I think you need to take these figures to your school board meetings, I do agree that "board of education" is a conflict of terms for ours is inhabited by some of the dumbest people on earth
 
We taxpayers just spent $3,000,000 (three million) JUST on a new school bus garage. The entire project is $30,000,000 (thirty million dollars). And, to add insult to injury - now that we have this luxurious bus gargage - they don't want to fix anything. Just keep buying new buses every year.

Out little town is spending $18,000 per year per student. That's more then the cost of sending a kid to State college. Also, one small school, yet we have a school principal who gets paid $110,000 per year, AND a school superintendant who get paid $130,000 per year. Even the head janitor is getting paid $70,000 per year. And the teachers? They all have " teacher's aids" to help them with their work, get summers off, and every imaginable holiday in-between. They just had Columbus day off for Pete's sake. I doubt many even know who Christoforo Colombo really was, much less spend time honoring him. And with all this, they constantly complain, via their union - the biggest lobbyist and vote extortor in New York.

Sorry, now I'm really starting to rant and rave. I only meant to gripe about the specific ignorance of the propane deal.
 
I live in Massachusetts sometimes called Taxassachusetts, I worked in upstate New york ( That being north and west of Albany for 15 years
some of the most beautiful country i believe their is 3 brothers and a sister have since moved up their, but the taxes have never made a lick of sense nor the (APA) rules my 4 bedroom house with garage pays less in taxes then a empty building lot their. If you fit all those tractors or solar panels in Michigan (My only escape is to get the heck out of this area) I can help in storing them.
And yes my town has made its many mistakes as well" The cost to renovate and expand Falmouth High School was initially set at $67 million but $18.8 million in additional funds is being sought at Town Meeting "
 
With respect I ask you to look further into the costs of operating both fueled buses. Fueling alone is the only cost. Oil changes, etc. come into the mix as well.

Did you ever see the oil drained from a diesel engine with 3,000 miles on it, and oil from an LPG engine with the same mileage on it? The oil from the LPG engine will look like new while the oil from the diesel will look more like it has 100,000 miles on it.

You must also consider proposed EPA emission standards for diesel particulates and what changes might be needed to the buses and at what cost of those proposals.

Tune up of LPG vs. diesel, diesel probably wins out on that one. Overall longevity of the engines? Both should have long life.

If I were on a school board I'd sure have to study the diesel vs. propane cost per mileage issue before I could make a decision, but there is certainly more involved than just BTUs per gallon.

As to voter fraud, have you contacted state officials about it?
 
I would think the idea is that propane is cleaner than diesel. Not saying it is just thats the idea for now.
 
When I spell kickback I usually use upper case letters, KICKBACK.............
A few years back I had a lot of inside knowledge of local School and County Govt. doings,and belive me it would shock some as to some of the things going on.
Here they hire family members for "do nothing jobs" then hire another for his/her assistant.
I've often wondered how other working folks feel when they see ball coaches salaries posted at several times what they make in a year. I know how I feel.....SICK. Our school taxes are going crazy,and a LOT of it goes to waste and pure b.s.
My 2 cents worth.
 
I have looked into it with a bit more depth then it seems the school administrators have. Oil change costs aren't even a "drop in the bucket."
Also note that more extra time will be spent refueling propane busses then will be spend on the extra oil changes for diesels.

Emmission mandates don't matter either. Either the buses are legal for use when we buy, or they are not. We don't fix them, just keep buying new every 100K miles.

Keep in mind we just spent over Three-million dollars on a deluxe heated bus gargage to eliminate diesel fuel gelling and cold starting issues.

Propane bus - driven 100,000 miles
Uses $62,500 in fuel ($50,000 if subsidized)
Uses $600 in oil for oil changes.

Diesel bus -driven 100,000 miles
Uses $39,000 in fuel.
Uses $1200 in oil for oil changes.
 

A number members on the forum mentioned you need to get out of where you live. Unfortunatily, based on other letters there is no where to escape. I live in Westmoreland County, VA. which only has 17,000 persons. Our Board of Supervisors just (last monday) voted to spend $17 million for a new court house because the curcuit judges are afraid they could get hurt. Never had any problems with judges getting attacked in our 350 year history. But worse they are putting out requests for bids having only conceptual plans without specs. Real bunch of smart guys. Seems any place you could live is a mess.
 
Yes, propane IS cleaner - if all you pay attention to is what is coming out the tail pipe. But, how about factoring in all the rest associated with it? Remember that propane is manufactured, and is NOT a natural resource. It has to be manufactured, and then trucked or rail-shipped across the country. All those things use fuel - usually diesel.
 
I moved about 1-1/2 year ago from the county I was in. The school system there was over the edge too. I owned 3.77 acres with a house and small barn. $1836.00 per half property taxes $1127.00 of that went to local school distric.
 
Worcester School district, Otsego County, New York. Same sort of nonsense with our "next-door" town of Schenevus-Maryland, NY. They did the same or similar "upgrade" a few years back, and now are proposing another one - that includes fixing some of the first one that hasn't been near paid for yet.

Rumour has it that the State of NY is going to force one of these schools to close eventually, due to low enrollment. So, there seems to be a sort of contest going on - to see who gets to stay - and who has to merge with the other. When all is done, one of these monsters will be sitting empty.
 
I just want to comment on propane vs. diesel. My friend works for a propane company where I live. I say him this past summer with the truck and the fuel station putting diesel in the truck hauling propane. I ask him why they were using diesel instead of propane and the answer was to costly. They are basicly a gas motor run off of propane.
He said they were having a lot of break downs. Deisel in trucks work better then gas motors. Very rare will you get the high milage out of a gas or propane motor that you do with a diesel.
 
I just want to comment on propane vs. diesel. My friend works for a propane company where I live. I say him this past summer with the truck and the fuel station putting diesel in the truck hauling propane. I ask him why they were using diesel instead of propane and the answer was to costly. They are basicly a gas motor run off of propane.
He said they were having a lot of break downs. Deisel in trucks work better then gas motors. Very rare will you get the high milage out of a gas or propane motor that you do with a diesel.
 
I just want to comment on propane vs. diesel. My friend works for a propane company where I live. I say him this past summer with the truck and the fuel station putting diesel in the truck hauling propane. I ask him why they were using diesel instead of propane and the answer was to costly. They are basicly a gas motor run off of propane.
He said they were having a lot of break downs. Deisel in trucks work better then gas motors. Very rare will you get the high milage out of a gas or propane motor that you do with a diesel.
 
I'm not too surprised. When I was looking at new buses everyone was talking about how we will eventually go to all propane. An amazining transformation from the all-gas fleets we used to run, then to diesel (which was suppose to be fantastic), now back to combustion. I know that all of the fleet mechanics around here are eager for that transformation. When Ford brings back the B-series I'll be in...
 
Technically, there can't be any voter fraud proven because New York State law does not require anybody presenting ID when voting for school budgets. Anybody can walk in, sign "nnalert Clinton" one time and vote. Then come back an hour later and sign "Al Gore" and vote again. And yes, you could say that works for both sides of the argument, i.e. for the "yes" and the "no" voters. In reality, it does NOT work that way. Why? Seems most of the working common-sense based people don't like to get involved in such things. Those with agendas DO. Also, often people that have a lick of common sense assume most others do also - which is not true and that line of thinking is almost oxy-moronic. The general mind-set in town with many was - "no need to vote" because "nobody in their right mind would ever vote for this."

My wife and I DID vote. While there, we listened to a couple of school-aged girls giggling and bragging they'd already voted four times each - and neither was qualified to even vote once.

A group of people tried to bring a law suit against the school and asked for a copy of the voter sign-in sheet. The original was NEVER released to the public.
 
I just don't know where to begin. First of all if vote fraud is suspected, you start there. Who gives a D$mn about a buss motor, get control of your school. Make a personel visit to a board member and the schools. I am a past school board member and spent 12yrs. on a board that 99% of the time talked about what was going on in the classroom 1% on other topics. You can find what you're missing if you get involved and see what REALLY happenes in a school system. EMAIL is always open; Gary
 
There was an article in the Baltimore paper about a month ago.. They were replacing some of their diesel busses with hybrid electrics. A new diesel bus cost about $200,000 and their total cost to run over it's lifetime was about $.85/mile. The new hybrid busses were about $800,000+ and their cost per mile was just shy of $2.00,plus the cost of training the drivers and shop employees,and the additional equipment needed to test,service and charge them.
The difference in price was being picked up by the Federal government.... once agin,your tax dollars at work.......
 
I agree that local schools spend WaaaaaY to much of our money on unneeded crap.

In my local district a new elementry school was put up, even with declining enrollment. Disgusting.
 
Face it. it is the sign of the times and all the crook we have in gov. Any more there is to much spent and probably a good bit of it gets spent because there is money going under the table to get it spent.
 
Our school tryed L.P. busses 20 years age and found them to be cheeper to run than the gas versions. They also tryd a few diesel busses. I wish I still had the cost figures. Over the long run the diesels proved far far cheeper to operate.
 
I hear ya. I've watched the same train of thought in the nuclear industry. Eventually you get numb and just take the paycheque home.
Perhaps it's not a "Knee Jerk" politically correct Environmental Green Initiative. And just either good old fashioned stupid or somebody is getting paid off under the table.
If they had wanted to they could have added a LP fueler to a diesel engine and replace about 1/4 to 1/3 of the diesel with LP. Tailpipe emissions would be very clean. Plus if LP prices went sky high or dried up.. 100% diesel operation is still possible.
It's wonder somebody didn't order electric buses. In all honesty they may have been better than LP if temps were always above freezing.
 
Our local school is the same--overspending. These folks teach our children, and are very overpaid--yet over budget every year? These folks get paid high dollars because they are smarter?

Our school just put on a new roof, and they had the specks drawn up for the new roof. No one else had a chance because the specks were drawn up by a dude that owns the company --that has exclusives on the materials required. He sold his own job.

Competition on this roof if done by others was $62,000.00 cheaper with a longer guarentee.
 
I did, as well as many others start with the question of "voter fraud." As I already stated, New York State law does not require ID for voters in school budget votes and/or referendums, and . . . the school never released the original voter sign-in sheet - although it was formally requested several times. So, a local businessman tried to get donations to fund a law-suit, but enough money was not raised. The school can just tax us when they want to spend money. We citizens, cannot.

As to the idea of "getting" involved? I've been to many school board and budget meetings here over the course of 30 years. I was also on the Town Board. To be a school board member, there are absolutely NO requirements in regard to skill level, education , etc. You just have to "run" and get the most votes. The result? It is a very rare event when somebody gets on the board that has skills, and any kind of real-world view, rather then a myopic academic view on matters. For an unpaid position with zero requirements, usually the only ones that get involved are those who want to expand the school system and increase spending. When the rare event does occur when somebody with common sense gets on the board, they usually step down pretty quick out of frustration.

Sorry, but I think the concept of "getting involved" and "making a difference" is a bit rediculous in today's world. Our leaders in this State are chosen, indirectly, by the Unions via legal extortion and vote promising, and the most powerful union in New York is the Teachers Union.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if electric busses might be more cost effective in parts of Canada where you've got so much hydro. Here in NY, most of our electricity comes from burning coal. So, an electric bus would basically be an indirect coal-burner - and nothing more - except maybe a lot of diesel fuel used to truck the coal here to NY.
 
In my small town people get info that officials don't want released fairly frequently through the right to know law. The first time it happened the officials tried to keep it back by claiming personal reputation, or impending law suit, or bid process, or one of those outs. It didn't hold however, so now they let requested information out pretty much right-away.
 
To be honest... if I had to make a decision between spark ignition and a new diesel in that size vehicle I'd take a very hard look at spark... The emissions crap on the new diesel engines has gone a long way to destroying their fuel economy and an even longer way towards destroying their simplicity and reliability. The operating costs on some of these new rigs are quite high when you factor in the cost of towing and downtime, never mind the repair costs.
Be better if they could stick with slightly older diesel units if the could... but I know that here they try to replace them every 10 years regardless of mileage because they're worried about the old things collapsing on the road.

Rod
 
One reason school districts like to spend (and go in debt) is to prevent mergers... if the distirct has a lot of debt, other discticts wont' go along with absorbing them (and their debt). Doesn't mean its the right thing to do, but school boards and some residents vote that way.
 
I don't think propane is better. But your logic is a little off since any fuel would be shipped in, at least from the closest pipeline. Some propane comes from refining other is a byproduct.
 
Not completely off. Some petro products are transported partially by pipeline, including oil and natural gas.

Let me know when you start seeing propane powered locomotives, tractor-trailers, and . . . propane delivery trucks.
 
You're lucky your schol board is so straight. Where I live, just after they spent $40 million "renovating" the 4 county high schools they discovered they had neglected to build a storage buiding at each school. The board (with a straight face) now wants to spend another $1 million for 4 storage sheds. That's $250,000 apiece!!! Lunacy is an understatement!

I guess all school baords are cut from the same piece of cloth and check their common sence at the door.
 
I was just saying there is a delivery cost on most any fuel. Just because it's diesel being hauled by diesel doesn't make it better. I have seen new propane powered delivery trucks. Like I said I don't believe propane is better but with EPA regs. we will most likely see more.
 
Schools and their budgets are the bane of my existence. Instead of using taxpayer funds to educate, they use the funds to build monuments to the upper level staff.

This propane issue? Chances are someone someplace is getting a kickback.
 
I personally think there is a saftey issue as well. If you get a propane leak and a tiny spark, you have a huge explosion, but with deisel you can butt a ciggarette out in it and not have a fire. When I was driving truck 25 years ago, one of my fellow drivers opened his hood and the whole outside of the engine was white from a propane leak. Even though it was a new truck, it was dragged out to an open feild until spring, because the owners and mechanics didn't want to risk trying to fix it and create a spark, and get blown up in the proccess. The thought of my kids riding to school on a bomb doesn't make me feel good. By the way the company replaced all of the propane trucks with deisel. Also, deisel technology created in the past year is supposed to have increased fuel mileage again. I imagine soeone is getting paid off to promote propane busses
 
The envio Nazis wouldn't care, it's about building an empire of power and influence.
Electric sounds good and 99% of the public don't know any better. They can't see past the missing tailpipe. They have no clue where the electrical power comes from.
If the cost is high the public doesn't care, it's government money.
 
Two different things going on here. One, as many have suggested, someone's palms are getting greased. Two, its about GREEN. Combine the two things and you'll find tree huggers allowing taxpayers to be taken to the cleaners in the name of GREEN kickbacks and corruption. If they could manage solar powered and it cost 100 times the cost of diesel, to them...and others in DC.., it would be well worth the expense to the taxpayers to save one, only one of mother earths ants in the name of GREEN behind the scene kickbacks and corruption all the way into sellected bank accounts.

Don't get me going. Its Sunday and I want to get a good night's sleep.

Mark
 
I just changed propane suppliers and they delivered my new tank with a brand new truck.
They left the engine running while they operated the hoist and I noticed the smell of the exhaust was similar to the exhaust from my propane furnace vent. I said you must be burning propane; nope, its one of the new "clean" diesels. Absolutely no black in the exhaust pipe.
So........if the propane dealers are burning diesel, what does that tell you about the cost?
Those spending the taxpayer's money will never "get it" 'til there is a revolt!
 
How long did it take to think kickback. I dealt with state people for years and the mob has got nothing on them. They got more angels than a person can count. It would make a you sick to see it from the inside and they laugh all the way to the bank. I should write a book about it but would probably disappear before it came out.
 
These new LP buses are liquid injected instead of the old "gas engine converted to run on propane vapor". The old engines were junk from the get go, these new ones are much much much better. Around here the cost difference of propane would make it worthwile, but I'm going to guess your cost difference in NY isn't anywhere close to ours in Ill. I work for a LP distributer as a driver/salesman. I drive a 2008 IH Durastar 4900. It uses the clean diesel technology. I love the truck, but hate the engine. I'd take my old trucks engine over this one, or even a LP engine. My personal opinion is that these "clean diesels" are extremely dangerous. The "afterburner" on mine will get to 1200 degrees F to burn off the soot. It is mounted about 1 1/2 ft above the ground. What happens is it starts its procedure and I am parked along a road with grass or in a field of wheat stubble/corn stalks (we have a lot of oil wells around this area and I have to drive the truck through those fields to get to them). I'm not saying that the LP buses are the way to go, that should come down to numbers crunching by the school (and yes, oil changes should be figured into it, refilling (*), engine life, parts availability, etc). Sometimes changes are the way to go sometimes its best to stick with what you have, only the "true costs" will tell you what is best. As for being scared of LP, I wouldn't worry about that. Remember that any fuel will/can start a fire. We had an accident in Illinois probably 15-17 yrs ago where a truck T-boned a school bus and ruptured the fuel tank causing a fire. A lot of lives were lost in that accident and it was not a propane bus. Good chance that if it is a LP bus and the LP tank is hit in an accident it will not rupture. The valves are designed to break off in a certain place and then stop the flow of fuel.
Adam

* - As far as refueling the busses it is no harder than gasoline or diesel, but it just takes a little training. These new DOT tanks can't be overfilled as they have a special valve in them. And pumping the fuel isn't much different than gasoline of diesel.
 
What engine are these new buses going to be using?

I've spent more than 25 years servicing a fleet of trucks than run on propane. They have a fleet of about 7000 trucks and always used a few diesel and gasoline powered vehicles to compare costs. The conversion cost to get them to run on propane was recovered in less than 2 years as compared to running on gasoline and even quicker when compared to diesel.

Since GM quick making medium duty trucks they lost there supplier of chassis with gasoline engines. The new trucks coming in here are now diesel.
 
You need to add a few facts, if you're trying to make a positive argument for propane over diesel. Main this is where did these "great savings" take place? Out west, or in the northeast? As I've already stated, propane is often twice the cost here in the northeast, as compared to out west.

Obviously, if you want to talk about projected savings, you also have to talk about price of propane versus diesel in the area where the use takes place.

Propane bus gets 4 miles per gallon.
Diesel bus gets 8 miles per gallon.

Obviously, to even break even, propane will have to be half the price of diesel.

Here in New York, right now,without highway tax added, propane is $2.50 per gallon and diesel is $2.75. Propane bus is much more expensive to run. Propane bus travels 4 miles on $2.50 and the diesel bus travels 4 miles for $1.38.
 
You need to factor in the cost of service/repairs on the diesel tho... Since the green weenies got hold of the diesel engine... it's esentially been ruined.
I know of some trucks around here that have been back to the dealer shop, on average, about once per month since new. Even though most of that is covered under warranty the 4 hour float charge is not... and that's pretty common with some engines. Less so with others.

Rod
 
Yes, but the new propane buses using liquid systems are also a fairly new technology. Since our town now only puts 100K mile on these buses and then replaces them, and they all have warranties, I do see maintenance as a big issue.

All I see is the actual tests for these new buses and the propane versions get 1/2 the miles per gallon. And, they are much less versatile since there are very few places to buy propane as a motor fuel in NY.

I've read through several studies of towns actually using fleets of propane buses and none have reported any savings in the northeast. In fact, most have stated that they can't even "break even" using the State's added 50 cents per gallon rebate on the propane. It's been a net-loss.

If what you are saying is universally true, how come all bit over-the-road trucks aren't using propane?
 
I suspect that there would be a huge difference in fuel consumption when comparing OTR truck engines. The difference is not as large in buses where they're basically glorified pickups anyhow. To get 1800 torque from a spark ignition engine would require a rather large engine...

Rod
 
Buses around here spend most of their lives doing constant stop-and-go driving. Big rigs do not. Regardless, the gains with diesel work with all these uses.

I don't personally own a fleet of buses, so I'm going to rely on the published reports of those that DO own them. As I said, the fleet average is 4 MPG for propane, and 8 MPG for diesel. Gasoline versions get 5 MPG.

I suspect that gasoline power is probably cheaper then the propane versions overall, but diesel easily beats them both.

Prices versus energy (without the highway taxes)

A gallon of gasoline for $2.65 has 114,000 BTUs of energy.

A gallon of propane for $2.50 has 84,300 BTUs.

A gallon of diesel for $2.75 has 130,000 BTUs.

The better buy is kind of obvious when it comes to how much energy a dollar is buying here.

Factor in that you can buy gasoline and diesel almost anywhere, and you cannot with the propane - the choices seem obvious to me.
 
Propane works well on route trucks that return to the depot every day where they can be refueled. If you have a nation wide contract on propane delivery and purchase 45 million gallons a year the price can be very competitive. The local depot here pays less for propane with all the taxes paid than I can contract for heating fuel.

The liquid fuel injection has been around about 10 years now and they are dependable systems. Fuel tanks are stronger than the truck frames. I have seen them knocked off of a truck that was hit by a train and not rupture. All valves must be double sealing and shut off inside the tank so that if they are sheared off they will not leak.

At 100,000 miles of use before trading the additional cost of a diesel compared to a gasoline may not be recovered. The ones I serviced generally got about 250,000 miles on them and for the most part had no failures. After switching to synthetic engine oil they now run 25,000 between oil changes. The other engine servicing is plugs, wires, and filter every 25,000 miles. Servicing the LP system is mostly replacing fuel pumps somewhere between 35,000 and 75,000 miles.
 
For your prices yes, it makes sense to stick with the diesel. That price is almost twice as high as LP is around here. We are at $1.62 per gallon.

Anyway as far as using diesel engines in our trucks, it has to do with fuel taxes mostly. We still have a few trucks that run on LP, but its easier to run the trucks on diesel since we also have tractors, semis, bobcats, and other equipment that runs on diesel.

I'd have to agree about the corruption in the voting area though.
I just found out that here in Illinois if you vote absentee that your vote is useless unless it is a close race (recount type of situation). Talk about screwy!!! I'm going to guess that was some Chicago politicions bright idea!
Adam
 
I agree with you on the fuel price numbers... but that's only part of the cost.
It's the reapir and tow costs that worry me on the new diesels nevermind the higher cost to start with.
IIRC, last I looked at GM pricing on that class of truck, the basic Isuzu engine was an 18 grand upcharge and then another ~5 grand for the emission crap. This is canadian dollars... but this was also close to 2 years ago when the dollar was at par. Those were list prices. Presumably a volume deal would yeild a lot less than list for those figures... but it's still a chunk of change.
I think the overall operating costs are a lot closer than you think when you really look hard at it.
Wether or not they need the new buses is a whole other story...

Rod
 
Maybe your school system is getting the buses for free. Two or three years ago, ours replaced every bus they had, and at least one north of us and one south of us got all new buses. Thats over 100 free buses. The State of New York bought them for us.
 
(quoted from post at 15:54:54 10/19/10) Maybe your school system is getting the buses for free. Two or three years ago, ours replaced every bus they had, and at least one north of us and one south of us got all new buses. Thats over 100 free buses. The State of New York bought them for us.
Click to expand...

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You mean the NY tax payer didn't have to pay for new buses?
 
There is supposed to be a State program that will pay $90 of every $100 spent - IF we qualify and IF the State of NY does not declare bankrupty. NY is WAY in the red, and things are getting worse every day.

Regardless, how can that money be "free" when it comes from our taxes to start with. Sales tax, income tax, fuel tax, fees, etc., &c. My daughter-in-law (a school teacher) made a similiar statement recently about "free" federal grants. I don't care where the money comes from. Waste is waste, and a school system supposedly is there to promote knowledge. Seems part of that ought to be promoting sound economics. If many of we taxpayers have to watch our money in a very-bad economic climate, the school system should be doing the same. The reality is, we just spent millions on a new school bus garage - and now they don't want to use it (for repairs). Just keep buying shiny-new. And the teachers keep sqawking for more raises.
 
Yes, I understand - but it's not always easy to detect sarcasm or "being droll" on a forum were we can't see each other. Not unless we all start using those stupid little face-icons (or whatever they're called). If you ever see me attach a smiley face to any of post posts - you may shoot me.

Scary thing is, when my school-teacher daughter-in-law got talking about Federal "free" money, she believed it and was dead-serioius.
 
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