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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

RUNNING WATER PUMP WITH PTO

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TONY C.

08-29-2010 21:10:40
68.194.22.69



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My neighbor has a deep-well pump that has a right-angle 1 to 1 Johnson gearhead on it. He has been powering it for years with a Chrysler slant six.
He has a John Deere 2010 which he says can run 1,000 rpm pto. He says he can live with running it at 1000 rpm or less for now.

The question is, will the pto rotation be backwards of the Dodge car engine and is there a way to overcome this at reasonable cost? He was already starting to have a driveshaft made up when this potential problem/question cropped up.

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WA-Hal

08-31-2010 22:16:19
208.81.157.90



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 Re: RUNNING WATER PUMP WITH PTO in reply to TONY C., 08-29-2010 21:10:40  
Since it has worked for years with a Slant 6, maybe he should just get another one. Chrysler made hundreds of thousands of them and I bet there are still lots of them out there that would run OK. I assume that the governor system on the old 6 and the rest of the adaptation is still available.

Using another Slant 6 would probably be the cheapest solution, at least in the short term. Then there would be no fabrication, and he would be sure that it would work right when he needs it to work right. And his tractor would not be tied up with the job of pumping water. Good luck!

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TONY C.

09-01-2010 08:28:50
68.194.22.69



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 Re: RUNNING WATER PUMP WITH PTO in reply to WA-Hal, 08-31-2010 22:16:19  
I kind of told him the same thing. I think what happened is the Slant 6 threw a fan belt and overheated. I don't think anything was damaged except the head gasket blew and maybe the head warped. I told him to fix it or look for another one, but I guess the idea of hooking up to the pto looked like a quick fix (not!).



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Spook

09-01-2010 07:02:23
75.45.85.2



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 Re: RUNNING WATER PUMP WITH PTO in reply to WA-Hal, 08-31-2010 22:16:19  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

I'd bet on millions of slant 6 engines. They were used for years, in different vehicles.



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buickanddeere

08-31-2010 20:12:43
216.183.145.172



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 Re: RUNNING WATER PUMP WITH PTO in reply to agpilot, 08-29-2010 21:10:40  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see
Twopop raised an import point. The pump is centrifugal, not positive displacement. Flow, pressure, HP will vary with a the square or cube of the rpm.
Possibly at a measly 1000rpm the pump won't make sufficient pressure and flow for the application.
As expensive as electricity is. It beats the cost of LP, gasoline or diesel.



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TONY C.

09-01-2010 08:34:44
68.194.22.69



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 Re: RUNNING WATER PUMP WITH PTO in reply to buickanddeere, 08-31-2010 20:12:43  
Actually, isn't a deep well turbine positive displacement, basically a screw turning in the water; I know they tell you not to run them dead-headed. I have an 8 inch one on my property and have run it anywhere from 800 to 1800 rpm with a Ford gas engine depending on the output needed.



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WGWKy

08-31-2010 19:37:52
173.190.43.62



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 Re: RUNNING WATER PUMP WITH PTO in reply to TONY C., 08-29-2010 21:10:40  
My White 2-105 has three PTO speeds 540 &1000 clockwise and a engine speed PTO counter-clockwise for direct drive on generators or pumps, hence no power loss in a gearbox.



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MikeO-WI

08-30-2010 19:27:08
71.89.20.99



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 Re: RUNNING WATER PUMP WITH PTO in reply to TONY C., 08-29-2010 21:10:40  
The engine speed pto was the sole reason my dad bought his first Oliver, a screaming 1950 with the detroit engine. I know the 1750 and up including the 55 series have the engine pto. I also thought some 1900 and possibly 1800's have it. We still use a 2150 to run a well and our Cummins 1855 is on a pump. The pump is attached to the tractor via the 3-pt hitch. The one difference between a gas engine and diesel might be the rpm's. Our pumps are bigger allowing for a slower running tractor.

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Allan In NE

08-30-2010 06:23:24
148.66.88.254



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 Re: RUNNING WATER PUMP WITH PTO in reply to TONY C., 08-29-2010 21:10:40  
Oh yeah,

If he is he!!-bent on using the tractor, he could lift the gearhead off the well and belt 'er up direct with a twin V-belt. Any irrigation outlet will have those belts and the pulleys.

Might have to build a "PTO cart" arrangement to get clearance behind the tractor tires.

Allan



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dave2

08-30-2010 05:05:24
91.10.178.217



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 Re: RUNNING WATER PUMP WITH PTO in reply to TONY C., 08-29-2010 21:10:40  
Restrictions being size of hose, elevation, etc. Think for that purpose, Harbor Freight or Northern Tool could be a friend. Dave



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twopop

08-30-2010 04:56:54
96.14.58.248



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 Re: RUNNING WATER PUMP WITH PTO in reply to TONY C., 08-29-2010 21:10:40  
for many years we pumped 350 gallons a minute using a 258 ci amc engine.using propane as fuel.finally found a 2 cyl. lister air cooled,20 hp engine for 400 bucks.cut my fuel usage by 66%

in order to use the 2010 at 1000 pto speed the engine would have to be turned 1800 to 2100 rpm

a 1 to 1 gearhead spun only 1000 rpm is very inefficient



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evilboweivel

08-30-2010 03:55:06
69.211.137.7



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 Re: RUNNING WATER PUMP WITH PTO in reply to TONY C., 08-29-2010 21:10:40  
I think the rotation is backwards
any chance the JD has an engine pto output??
some Oliver tractors did for exactly what you are doing. it is located above the pto shft in direct line from the engine to the back
Ron



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TONY C.

08-30-2010 04:24:58
68.194.22.69



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 Re: RUNNING WATER PUMP WITH PTO in reply to evilboweivel, 08-30-2010 03:55:06  
I doubt if the JD has an engine power output, it has a shaft that you can reverse for either 540 or 1000 pto. But I did notice he has an Oliver 770 with a loader on it; maybe we should take a look at that. Do you remember how old an Oliver or what models you saw this on? He also has a few other old tractors that run, JD 50, 4-cylinder Ford 4000, etc.



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Tramway Guy

08-30-2010 05:54:21
67.249.37.53



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 Re: RUNNING WATER PUMP WITH PTO in reply to TONY C., 08-30-2010 04:24:58  
The 770 does not have an engine speed PTO. The Oliver models that have an engine speed outlet are: 1800, 1750, 1850, 1950, 1950T. I think that the 2050 and 2150 did as well. There were also a few MM models might have also. They used the same rear ends as the Olivers, but with Moline engines.
Yes, the problem with most PTO's is the speed and directioni of rotation. The problem with Pumps and fans is that cutting the speed in half reduces the output by the cube root. So you would get 1/8 the output, approximately. Might not even get water out of the well at all, just churn it around in the well a little. With a 540 RPM pto, it just would not work. However it should be possible to get a speed increaser to put between the PTO and well head that would solve both the speed and direction problem. Or a new well head drive.

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dave2

08-29-2010 22:36:04
91.10.178.217



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 Re: RUNNING WATER PUMP WITH PTO in reply to TONY C., 08-29-2010 21:10:40  
How much water does he pump and what are the restrictions out of curiosity? Would just a motor driven pump be more efficient? Friends of ours have a stall/stable and riding arena a little off the grid that needs a generator. They have a tractor with it's sole purpose being to drive that generator. Got a kid in town that is pretty much a tinker. He was with me one day and saw the tractor setup and shook his head. He went home and got a portable PTO (lack of better words) he put together using a 6 or 8 HP diesel motor. They moved the tractor and tried his setup and it worked just fine. The tractor now has a new life after he made the setup for them also.

Just a thought.



Dave

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TONY C.

08-30-2010 04:16:40
68.194.22.69



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 Re: RUNNING WATER PUMP WITH PTO in reply to dave2, 08-29-2010 22:36:04  
He needs to pump about 150 gallons per minute. This is only in the summer months for a small vegetable farm that gets watered 1-2 times a week when it hasn't been raining. I don't know what you mean by restictions, but there are no water rights or any kind of regulations involved.

Is your suggestion that it could be converted to an electric motor? It is not too far off the grid and he could probably get power out there, but I think you would be needing a 10-12 HP motor and maybe 3-phase power. Also one of the nice things about the gas engine or PTO drive is that you can vary the engine speed for how much volume or pressure you need; an electric motor would run at constant 1750 rpm.

I think he was on the right track with the pto idea until the problem of the tractor pto turning opposite direction of the engine cropped up. Since he only has to pump water a few dozen days out of the year the pto power would have been handy and the rest of the time the tractor would be freed up for other work. I told him if it were me I would have looked at either fixing the gas engine or elese find an old 4-cyl pickup truck (diesel?) and use the drive train engine and tranny from that to power the pump.

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