How would you deal with this situation?

I had a major forest fire(about $12,000,000) go through my property that I have a motocross track on. The land is rezoned for it and I have a business license with the county. I have lost approx. $3000+ in revenue because of the fire. The first person from sustainable resources, who are in charge on large fires including cleanup and putting out hot spots, specifically asked me about any work I might like done to help clean up the property or at least help to fix up the track. I told him I could use some clay and a couple dugouts could be dug deeper. He said to let him know and also said they could make me some brush piles to burn in the winter. Everyone I talked to said he is very professional and is a man of his word. He was going for his days off and another person took his place. This person was sitting in the truck when the first guy asked if I decided what I wanted done. This person seemed fairly good and I showed him a couple dugouts that could be dug deeper.
Meanwhile they kept working on the hot spots. Now the second person is being replaced by a relatively new rookie in charge. This guy seems extremely reluctant to want to do anything for me. I told him of the couple dugouts that could be dug bigger. He had the hoe operator knock apart a pile I pushed up that had no hot spots at all. He did have the hoe come back and pile the tree's back up. It took a little over an hour and wasn't as nice as I had done it. Today I went out to see how they were doing and talked to this guy while the second person was in the truck. Today is his last day. The new guy asked about one of jumps and said it wasn't really damaged. A 60,000 lb. track hoe was drove over it a couple times in the mud since it rained! One of the ponds I wanted dug deeper was right beside this jump and I said they could just pile the top soil and then dump the clay on the jump. This guy didn't seem too keen to want to do anything. I explained that the first boss said he would get some work done for me since I had a lot of damage from the fire. This new guy said that the first guy isn't on the job anymore. I almost felt like telling him he has 1 hour to get the 2 water bladders off my property. Last Wed. another guy came by and had to get my permission to put the bladders on my property. It saves them stringing out miles of water hoses and there is lots of room for the trucks to turn around and other trucks with workers to park. That stupid comment this guy made really ticks me off. Everyone else has been great. I don't know if this guy is trying to get brownie points for saving money or what but that certainly isn't the way to get a good reputation like the first guy. What would any of you do in my situation if this new guy doesn't do anything to help me fix things up, like I was told would happen? A lot of it I have to do myself anyway but there is a lot to do. I wish I had the first guys phone number. He only works in the summer as a wildfire boss and has been doing it for 10 or 12 years. He is very highly regarded by everyone because he does an excellent job looking after not only the ground crews but also the land owners. They don't like the media coming around but I could certainly make that happen and make a lot of people look really bad. I like to take someones word for something. I'm open to reasonable suggestion on how to get what was promised. Thanks in advance for your responses. Dave

I would find out who the current site foreman reports too. Then I would work my way up the chain. If you feel that they are going to stiff you return the favor. Use whatever you think needs to be done.
I have to deal with this sometimes in my repair business. One guy understands what needs to be done and is fair. Then some other bean counter type comes along and "saves" money by being as pain in the butt. I make sure that they never save any money. If I am dealt with fairly then I will work as cheap as I can.

The first guy was doing you a favor if the second or third guy doesn't want to then there isn't much that you can do.
I would just chalk it up to experience and let it go.
Walt

I think there's lots I could do if I really wanted to. I wonder how this guy would feel if a fire went through his property? The first guy has been through it himself so I think gives him a lot more insight as to how much work is involved in restoring things and cleaning up. I have been helping them every way I possibly could. Even used my water truck to help them out. Dave

times have changed........... If you don't have an agreement on paper, you're prolly suckin................. To relate, I've given my word plenty of times just to have someone else pull the rug for one reason or another (work related).

Good Luck,


Dave

Dave, I agree with JD seller. Every one has a boss and better employees will do their best to do as directed by the boss or in the absence of instructions, to do as they believe the boss would want it done. From your various posts I get the impression that the workers work for a contractor, who is working for a Gov't. entity. Where I live the district forest fire warden would be in charge, and part of his responsibility would be to insure that property damaged by suppression operations is restored. I would go to the contractor's boss, he signs off on their bill.

I would think that they would be responsible for any damage they caused with equipment... but as far as them doing anything else for you... that would just have been a favor/courtesy. Likewise... if they asked for permission to setup somewhere on your property... that would have been more of a courtesy. If they had to be there, they'd be there wether you liked it or not.
You might want to contact someone higher up at Natural Resources or whatever department is responsible for looking after this fire and see what they are required to do for you... from an information perspective. Once you find that out, then talk to the boss on the ground. If you know the rules you have a better chance of pushing him in your direction in a non-confrontational kind of way.... but I seriously expect that their obligation to you is nil. Anything you were told verbally isn't worth the paper it's written on...

That's not really surprising when a big fire wears on, expenses climb, etc. They're no doubt under pressure at this point to mop up, get done and get out as quick and cheap as possible. What they might do from goodwill during a slow time/year is not going to be done now.

Rod

I don't understand how you can have your dirt track rebuilt as a result of a forest fire? You should be glad they are at least cleaning up some actual fire damage. If you don't like what they are doing just tell them to leave and do it yourself, the right way. And be sure to pee and moan here on the internet the whole time you are doing it.

Your actions during the fire, and to this day have been honorable and helpful. I believe the person who hired the person that is resending prior agreed upon assistance is the one to speak to. Not with malice, but with reason. Even getting a disposition or note from the first person would go a long way toward a positive outcome. Jim

If your house burns down the fire dept doesn't rebuild it for you. YOU and your insurance does. If someone wanted to do you a favor and someone else doesn't, it isn't someone elses fault. He didn't start the fire. You wanna know how most of us would deal with the situation? Be a man and take care of your own problems and quit expecting someone else to do it for you.

For them to have a machine(s) go around and clean up everything they have done on the property and around the track would be a lot more work than doing a couple relatively small things. They have to do a lot of reclamation work anyway. They weren't cleaning things up, they made a bigger mess spreading everything out checking for hot spots. The guy in the hoe didn't have too much regard for the track when he was going around. It's not like he was in the middle of the fire. I'm going to be talking to the county today concerning the disaster relief program. It is after all a business and I had considerable damage and loss of income. I was not the cause of the fire and should be eligble for some assistance, whether it be financial or clean up work. Dave

I didn't start the fire either and I certainly didn't have to give them permission to set up the water bladders on my property. We got a lot of rain/snow and tandem water trucks can make a real mess of a driveway and parking lot. Dave

Actually, they didn't need your permission to go on your property to fight a fire. Try to stop them and see what happens.

Hate to say this. Is it worth a lawyer? And there are good and bad lawyers.

They DID have to have my permission to set up the water bladders on my property. The fire is basically out and they are just putting out left over hot spots. They fought the fire with water bombers and other aircraft. Fire hoses would have done nothing. Rain slowed it down enough that they could get it under control. Dave

Nah, they don't need your permission.
As I noted in a previous thread... their authroity overrides your ownership when it comes to extinguishing fire. They can do what they want, where they want, when they want. It's not often that they would strongarm anyone over the issue but if it became critical and you were impeding their efforts to fight the fire, a mounty would carry you away.

Rod

What city and state was this forest fire in?

$12 million, Wow....how many acres (sq. miles) did the fire claim?

Had a deal kinda like this a few years ago when I was try'n to help out an oil company who was pulling some injection wells on a nighbor. I gave permission to use a farm road, in exchange for some sticks of pipe. The crew that came to do the job got lost and drove all over a waist high hay field they had no reason to be in. When they got done they did not know any thing about the deal I had made with the boss for pipe so they set behind a locked gate for an hour try'n to get him to answer his cell phone. I got the pipe but could not get them to pay anything for the hay. They came back a year later wanting to do more work on my neigbor and needed me to unlock a gate. I told them they could but down a $1,000 deposit or they could make their own d*** mile long road across my neigbor's place.

Guess what I am say'n in your deal would be to get every thing in write'n on company letter head. You need a little work done and they need a place to park. Don't just give permisson to out of towners with out every on paper and I would ask for some front money aswell to hold their feet to the fire. Might be worth a little money to get some good lawyer'n done too.

As I learned about 17 months ago from the nice little blue haired, life long family friend lady who used to own the farm across the road from my house, if it ain't on paper it was never said. She is now a person who "Can't Understan Normal Thinking" in my book.

Agreed.

In this day and age a person's word is only as good as the lawyer you hire to keep them honest.

Dave

Only in a state of emergency can they go in and do whatever they want. The state of emergency was lifted when the bladders came in. I was told by SRD that they need to have the property owners permission to use their property to set up the bladders. The reasoning was that it saves them laying out miles of hose. I could have said no. The state of emergency has ended and they do not have the same authority as when there is a state of emergency.
I talked to the county today and was told that they aren't required to repair any fire damage but are required to repair any damage caused by equipment brought on the property and/or the track. My driveway and parking lot are a mess and so is a lot of the track. Of course I want them to fix the driveway and parking lot. I walked the track and took pictures of all the things that have to be fixed up to the condition before the fire. I would prefer to do a lot of the cleanup and repairs myself so all the sand I hauled in doesn't get removed and they don't cause me more work. If they could dig me 2 or 3 piles of clay to fix things, I would be happy. They could spend 3 or maybe 4 hours at the most doing that or if they don't want to work with me, bring in a bunch of different machines and spend maybe 2 days fixing things up. I'm trying to make it a lot easier for them if someone would just listen to my reasoning. I spent hundreds of hours on the track and I'm pretty sure none of the operators have ever worked on an MX track before. Now the 3rd guy is leaving and another guy is coming in. That just makes things even more complicated. Why can't they just have one person come in to be in charge of things and stay there till the end or at least a month or so? It seems kind of dumb to me. Dave

Alberta, Canada. Now they say about $8,000,000. One of the supervisors said it was costing about $68,000/hour to fight the fire at it's peak. Water bombers and helicoptors with buckets don't come cheap! That was the only possible way to try and contain the fire. If it hadn't rained, they wouldn't have got it under control for at least a couple more days. They also estimate they've used 80,000 feet of fire hose putting out hot spots. Some websites wrongly said it was 30,000 sq. Kilometers. It was about 3000 hectares or 7400 acres of mostly heavy bush and was a very hot fire. One of the fire fighters said that when the deciduous tree's are burned that bad, means it was a very hot fire. Dave

Yeah yeah yeah....We all know the rules are different when applied to you. You're special.

Well... Alberta has different rules than here.
If someone asked for permission here it's more of a rhetorical question... and if you sign something, it's probably to aid in releasing us from liability.

I would expect them to fix anything they damaged... but on the other hand, if they find someone getting prickly, they're most likely to follow the book even if it means more work.
You wouldn't believe hom many would come back later and say 'you left my place in a mess'.... after they dug the pits out for you in trade... and since nothing was on paper, now they have to go back and fix the track too.
We had someone pull that crap on our department 20 years ago. Claimed we crushed a disposal field with a truck. The damn thing never worked right from the day it was installed. The house used to change hands every few years, likely because of that.... and this bugger just saw an oppertunity to screw some money out of someone else to get it fixed.
With all due respect, if you come across in person the same way you do on here, then I expect they're going to handle you very carefully.... means you're not getting anything from them that they're not directly obligated to do.

Rod

Yes, judging from the people skills demonstrated here, as well as in most of 135s posts, I would not be looking for much from those that he thinks owes him something. Time would be well spent taking a course in "How to win friends and influence people", beyond sarcasim, intimidation, put downs, and on and on.