New tier 4 engines from JD

I just got finished taking a class In the new Tier 4 engines, The new engines will have series turbo charging on the bigger engines (90+hp) Exhuast gas recirulation cooler but get this this is what i thought was interesting.

No more mufflers, They will now have Particulate filters. And get this There will be almost no maintance required (every 5000 you have to clean ash out) becuase there is a valve that will inject diesel into the exhuast pretty much creating an exhuast fire which will sky rocket EGT's and clean all the filters



I thought it was pretty interesting....maybe someone else will to

Did they tell you the price tag for this EPA mandated garbage? Did they say how much fuel is going to be wasted firing the filter? On road diesels have had this system since 2007. Deere is kinda going solo with the DPF system, other tractor manufactures are going with urea injection.

I cant imagine it wasting fuel, I think its a 5 second burst every couple hundred hours. It inly fires when the DPF is dirty. But of course they didnt tell us the cost, Its a a class affiliated with John Deere University haha. And im only a technician not a sales man haha but i would imagine they will be priced just like every other deere product. HIGH

Yeah.... it's an interesting ~theory~. It's a PRACTICAL nightmare.
You should stop by a Cat engine shop and ask the boys what they think of series turbocharging, EGR valves and particulate traps....
They are an expensive, unreliable pain in the arse. They require constant attention. Trucks are frequently derated by the ECM on the road to the point that they won't run, require a tow, etc. On top of all this, fuel efficiency has steped back 25 years to operate this 'technology'

From the information I've seen and read, SCR stands a better chance of being a more reliable system over the long haul with more chance of it also being defeated successfully.... so there may be hope yet.
For the time being I'm staying with my 20 year old Ford's and they're looking better and better every day....

Rod

My dad runs cross country hauling every thing from worcester sauce to orange juice about every 5 to 6 thousand miles the exhaust cracks and the truck derates until it shuts down completely . Im also learning on JDU here in SUNY Cobleskill and I think that sudden shot of diesel dose it in.

Bring back the turbo 8V71 detroit diesel. Even better the 8V92TI.

The EPA mandated particulate filters are nothing but trouble. All diesel pickup trucks have this mess starting in 2008. I have an '08 F350, and from the studies I've read, the system uses 2 gallons of extra fuel for each cleaning (regen). Regen occurs about every 250 miles under normal driving, and more often under heavy load. The DPF is also a restriction in the exhaust, which reduces power and milage. During the regen cycle, additional fuel is injected during the exhaust stroke, which causes cylinder wall wash down, and some fuel gets past the rings, diluting the oil. My truck would make about two quarts of oil between changes. This will reduce engine life as well as the poor milage. About two months ago I removed all this crap- the DPF and the DOC (catalitic converter) and tuned the computer to shut off the regen process. I now get 4 mpg better, in addition to better power and drivability. It seems like a different truck. On a recent trip, I averaged 22.5 mpg (driving easy), truck is a crew cab 4x4 dually weighing 9000 lbs. The real aggrevating thing is that this government mandated mess cost me about $4000 extra when I bought the truck, and another $850 to get rid of it, in order to make the truck what I consider useable. Besides, the particulate filter does just what it says- filters PARTICULATES of carbon (soot) which is heavier than air, and simply falls to the ground if not filtered out. The greenies are happy cause they don't see any smoke, but it does nothing for air quality. The whole idea, in my opinion, was dreamed up by people who have no understanding of how a diesel operates, but are sure diesel smoke is a terrible thing. I wonder what all comes out of the exhaust pipe during the regen process? The next step is this urea injection, which is said to reduce the frequency of regens, but then you gotta buy that stuff and fill a separate tank, they say at every oil change. Since removing the DPF, my truck rarely puts out any smoke- just a very fine puff if I stomp on it hard, not enough to kill any trees or libs. Love the truck now, but if I had to do it over, I may not have traded for it, knowing what I know now.

Sounds like a good way to burn down your barn. Be careful!

I was at a planter clinic at our deere dealer last week and they had a presentation on the new tier 4 engines. After it was over I leaned over and told the service manager I was sorry he was going to have to deal with that crap. He said he was sorry too.
Toolz hit this nail square on the head. I have a 2009 F250 with the 6.4. Nicest truck I have ever owned but that regen crap is bad news. You can just watch the fuel mileage plumett when it goes into regen mode and the power just vanishes. If a combine reacts like my truck there are going to be some ------ off farmers. I know I would be. The truck smells like it is going to catch on fire it gets the exhaust so hot and it does seem to make oil although ford seems to know nothing about it. I have heard terrible horror stories about the price of some of these componets and servicing them. It will be interesting to see how the rest of the companies meet the new regulations. It surely is interesting.
bill

Watch that Regen process. It WILL dilute the engine oil so you have to either get oil analysis or change more frequently. This goes for all 2007 and newer on road and apparently future off-road (tractor) engines. I think this is one reason CAT is getting out of the over-the-road engine business. Their newer truck engines have major dilution issues.

You may/probably (??) also need to switch to the CJ-4 oils like the 2007/newer on road engines so you'll have to change oil stocks in the shop. Most good CJ-4's are reverse compatible for older engines but not the other way around so you can still have one oil but it must be the CJ-4 not the CI-4. Pat-CT, did they cover that in the class?

Good old Al gore and the EPA goofing things up.

If you have more fuel dilution questions shoot me an email.

Pure 100% junk. Cummins has the same thing on their new engines...pure trash.
That is why I keep the old 96 Dodge.
Guess I will not buy a new tractor soon. Will keep the old fellers I have.

as I heard it said by a congress man you can't fix the epa you just have to do away with it and go to something else . the bureaucracy is to embedded to change

What do you mean bring back the 8V92TA? I still have one. Funny think is that it does not smoke half as much as these pickups with chips.

One hardly needs to be that drastic... I'd be happy to leave the 318 dead where it lies.
A return to the basic technology of the N14, 3406E and Series 60 DDEC4 wouldn't be a bad idea tho..
I've got my doubts if their NOx emissions are going to kill us any time soon.

Rod

(quoted from post at 09:11:47 03/30/10) as I heard it said by a congress man you can't fix the epa you just have to do away with it and go to something else . the bureaucracy is to embedded to change

Click to expand...

If anything can be carved in stone, it is, "you can never get rid of a government bureaucracy or entitlement". I am very sorry to say.

Ethan, You have same math as me....i didnt know you were on this site

EPA mission statement: We're not happy until you're not happy.

Friends that i go to school with that work at dealers said they are moving equipment like crazy right now, everyone is trying to buy before all this crap gets put on.

Can't say much about their function but I do know we have a ton of work in this neck of the woods because of them.

Good job,
Bill

The Master Plan by the vehicle and gun haters. Is the method known as "death by a thousand cuts". As an outright ban will never succeed. The plan is to ban via bit by bit, piece by piece the add layer upon layer of cost and complex paperwork/regulations.
The dreamers plan in a few decades. That we will be sitting on the hill sides, wearing white robes. Singing kum-by-yah hand in hand and eating tofu. No roads, no factories, no industry. All love and harmony. Something like the 1970’s Coke commercial singing “I would like to teach the world to sing, in perfect harmony etc.

I agree with you there, BD. The problem with these lib utopians is they never ask the question "who pays for our utopia?"

could somebody explain how a dpf going through a regen dilutes the engine oil with fuel.the fuel is injected down stream of turbo.

Read my post below. At least on my Ford, fuel is injected during the exhaust stroke. Otherwise, it probably wouldn't light off.

the systems i have worked on use a seperate injector for dpf.

From what I understand there are a couple different ways they do the regen. The most common, and I think the cheapest, is injecting extra fuel in the engine on the exhaust stroke. This adds fuel to the oil. Dodge/Cummins, GM and Ford are set up this way now. Supposedly some of them are changing designs in the future to a better but more expensive setup. There are several options including post engine fuel induction, electrical heating of the DPF ect. I think the higher the operating exhaust temps are the less the regen process needs to run (higher temps help burn off the carbon). Therefore the more you idle, city drive or baby the engine the more often it will need to regen. No matter what way you go the regen will use extra fuel (even the electrical takes fuel). The ash is what clogs the filters over time which is why the CJ oils are needed as they are a lower ash content oil than the pre-2007 CI oils. Sulfur also goofs up the regen process which is why they've gone to low sulfur fuels for on-road. Now with off-road engines with DPF's they'll need low sulfur fuel too.

When these modern tractors are "antiques" they will be really hard to work on.

external_linkcare is the same thing. When they saw how negative everyone was toward "single payer", they ditched it quickly. But they are setting the insurance companies up to fail by requiring them to insure everyone, regardless of condition, and when they fail, folks will be much more amenable to guvment health care, and that is exactly what we will get.

The primary reason the nanny state works in Europe and won't work here, is that we have a much larger (and more fertile) underclass, who won't pull their share of the load but demand to be supported. And even in Europe, it is finally starting to crumble under its own weight.

I know this, the current engines, you DON'T hit them with either. A friend had a couple of the computer-controlled ones on the lot last spring that were having fuel system troubles. a 2 second burst of either locked them right up. Turned out to be pinholes in the fuel lines.