Pole shed questions.

Gun guru

Well-known Member
I posted a message on here a week ago about pole sheds, steel vs. wood and so on.

Here are more questions.

1. I am thinking about a pole barn cause I wont have to put in a concrete foundation.

2. For those of you that have pole barns what type of floor do you have, Gravel, dirt/sand, concrete.

3. How far down does your bottom board go into the dirt? Do you use a 2x6 treated board? Should I put down a heavy visqueen vapor barrier before I put down limestone gravel for a foundation to keep moisture out?

4. How difficult is it to have all the poles line up properly and not be crooked, before you nail the siding on. I have never built a pole shed structure, but I have built 2x4 stick built frames which are easier to set up on a concrete pad.

5. If you dont have a concrete floor but have a gravel floor then how difficult or common is it to have rodents dig underneath to get into shed?

Post a picture if you can, I would like to put up a steel sided structure with steel roof.

I am thinking about a 400 square foot size, maybe 18X24 or so to store all the garden tools, lawnmower, tractor implements, paint etc.
 
We have an open sided pole barn that was built before we arrived. If you want to keep things out I would think a real building with a foundation would be better. Our pole barn was built on untreated red pine poles which have rotted away at ground level and had to be replaced, which is a miserable job and leaves you with an uneven roof line unless you jack the roof up again and shim once the new poles have settled. I built a building with an attached pole shed on one side in '08 and will include pictures.
Zach
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The poles must be exact in line or you will have problems with the roof. My bottom board around is a foot off the ground. I dug a trench around the outside and put the siding in the ground about a foot. I used galvaloum siding so the part in the ground will last longer than tin. Tin will rust out quick. 1/2 inch gravel floor.
 
Contractors that have built for me have built the walls perfectly straight. Trusses demand that, roofing demands that.

I have one with gravel floor, two with concrete. You will share the gravel floored building with mice, maybe rats, probably rabbits, and almost certainly raccoons. You probably will only share the concrete floored building with mice.

Bottom boards go down to floor or to dirt, but critters dig. Critters dig under the concrete slab too.

Gerald J.
 
I"ve built two or actually had two built for me. The first was a Morton Building, 30 X 55 X 12. I put a concrete floor in and have never been bothered by any animal, including mice in the building but they were always digging burrows underneath the slab (possums, skunks and groundhogs). I scraped away about 12" to 18" of soil all around the building with a front end loader and installed a 2" wide strip of galvanized chain link fencing attached to the top of the ledger board (think of a skirt all around the building) then backfilled over the fencing. Seems to have eliminated the burrowing. The other building with no cement floor is being used as an outhouse/home for mice, skunks, groundhogs and possums. So far conibear traps seem to work well but this next summer I"ll have to work on rodent proofing that building too. LOL.
 
I built a 40 x 40 20 tears ago. I fought the critters for all those years. Finally got a concrete floor in it this year. Mucho better. Coons and groundhogs are real nasty, the crap all over things, chew things up. A dirt floor meant everything got rusted, the moisture wicks up thru the dirt. And moving anything around is a pain. Working on something means if you drop something, ya gotta look in the dirt for it. And laying in the dirt working on something isn't nice either. A cement floor with a vapor barrier is really nice. I'd never build another without a cement floor.
 
I should be able to remember but...........crs and such.
Are you located where the temp drops below freezing?Dry or humid location? Is there room on the property to allow for later expansion? Do you have another shop,shed or garage?
Nobody ever built "too large of a shed".
 
I already have a 22 x 50 garage, I just want a storage building for all the stuff like deck furniture, lawnmower, paint, saw horses, clutter.
I am in Michigan so it gets real cold here.
I would like to to this the right way and put in a concrete floor.
 
I would set the poles at least 42", maybe 48" deep, depends on your frost line.
like the idea below about putting chain link fence 24" down
if you install 1" thick foam 24" down and 24" in all the way around then pour concrete that will help alot with condensation on everything in the building when temps vary a lot.
posts are easy enough to line up. set all four corners, then run strings top and bottom 1/2" away. set your posts using a 1/2" block and they will line up. snap a chalk line across the top and trim the posts to proper height.
use t&g treated bottom boards, minimum of three. use rat/mouse guard at the bottom of the tin.
good luck
Ron
 
One big advantage to pole-type building is often lost because the pole-holes are machine dug and sloppy.

If you dig the holes by hand or with a small auger, keep them small, and set the poles in those holes, and pack tight, they create the main vertical support for the building.

If you machine dig (like with a backhoe) big sloppy holes, then the poles do NOT give that vertical support. That then requires temp support until you get a roof trusses and braces on - otherwise it will be not be very strong, vertically.

Skirting can be done with pressure-treated 2X6's buried a bit with a parallel coarse of 2X6s above the ground. Then close by attaching pressure-treated CDX 1/2" plywood.

If the floor is dirt, you can dig down a foot, lay a plastic vapor barrier, and then put gravel over it.

Keep in mind with pressure-treated 6X6 or 4X6 main support poles - many are NOT properly treated to put in the ground. Often you have to special order them and also often - the people selling them at the lumber yard of Home Depot are clueless. Do NOT take their word for it.

The addition I built onto my house is pole-construction at the ground level, and the 2nd story is frame.

My 40'X 30' pole barn that I did myself has one open end for tractors to pull in and a special roof pitch to hold our solar panels.

Also have what you could call a four-story pole barn. Full 1st floor, full 2nd, attic-type walk-in 3rd, and a sort of cupola with a bed in it that is at 4th floor level. All 6X6 pole construction. Insulated and heated.

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I suspect it gets colder here in my part of New York then most places in Michigan. I say that since I have a two places in northern MI. One just below the Mac bridge in Presque Isle Co, and one 120 miles up on the upper tip of the UP in Brimley. We get 35 below F here and I never seen it dip below minus 22 F yet in MI.

If you've got sand below that concrete, it will do fine. If you've got muck, you'd better drain it and get some gravel under the concrete, or it will heave.

Just get your poles below the frost line. A minimum of 5 foot deep is required here.

One note about possible insulation. I did the entire exterior of my four-story barn with 1" thick, 4x8 foot sheets foam (Poly-Iso). Then put 1" thick, 12" wide rough hemlock boards over it. It really tightens the place up. I have an old oil hot-air furance with the thermostat set at 40 degrees F just to keeps things from freezing. Also have a wood furnace to get the place real warm when working in there. It takes very little oil to freeze-proof the place when set at tha 40 F degrees.
 
What did that Morton Building cost, a 55x30x12 must have been $45,000 or so. Fill us in on the price of that.

Morton makes some nice barns.

Morton did a quick quote for me 18x20x9, $8800, not bad for a barn. But I will build mine myself.
 
For your floor, concrete is really the only way to go, but if you're short on cash you can have some crushed limestone hauled in. It will pack down for a decent floor, and you can always pour concrete over it.

The skirt board has to be located wherever the bottom of your siding ends up, and should be lumber treated for ground contact. Mine are 2x6 tongue and groove. You can always add a second board under the first if your site is on a grade. Proper site preparation is essential; it needs to be reasonably level with good drainage. If you've prepared your site properly, you won't have any problem figuring out where to locate the skirt boards.

You will find that there's no such thing as a straight post. That's why the better post frame buildings use laminated posts. But you can make up for a fair amount of bend and twist in the posts: If the post has a twist, notch it so the girt will be straight. If it's crooked, be sure to keep the post inside the building dimensions and then shim the girts. If the post is too bad to use, take it back to the lumberyard for replacement.

Here in Oakland County, the bottom of the post needs to be 42 inches down. But the hole should be deeper, maybe 52 inches, then a concrete plug should be poured to bring the bottom of the hole back up to 42. If you make sure that all the plugs are at the same level, then all your posts will end up the same height. After you set the post, backfill with some pea gravel. I like to top the pea gravel with dry ready-mix (Quickrete/Sacrete), it really locks in the post and you don't have to worry about it moving while you construct the building.

You'll have problems with mice and squirrels only if there's something in the building for them to eat. Woodchucks are an entirely different matter and are likely to burrow under anything that doesn't have a ratwall. Most building inspectors want a two foot deep ratwall around any building that will have grain or other animal feed in it.

Like I said earlier, go talk to Carter Lumber. They will spec out a building for you, and you're under no obligation to buy anything. I've built two post frame buildings, a 6 x 10 foot chicken coop and a 30 x 40 foot shop, the latter was a Carter package.
 
I went to carter lumber yesterday, a 24x24 with 8foot ceiling is $4000 and a 10 foot ceiling is $4250. (these are pole building packages with no windows and a sliding door.)

I would put in a minimum of a limestone gravel floor with maybe a concrete mix on top of that.

To do what I really want is $10,000 for material. I would like to put in a full concrete footings and pad which would be $4500 and then a stick built frame, with vinyl siding and steel roof, 6/12 trusses which would be over $5000 for the wood, total price would be $10k
 
8 foot ceiling???? Get with it, you need 10 foot or why bother building. Even the compact tractors don't fit in an 8 foot door.

You're wasting time planning an 8 foot. Bad idea.

Now, others will come & say should be 12 or 14. And maybe they are right, but you are doing a small car shed, not a big machine shed.

But - if you have any kind of stuff you want to put in there other than 2 cars - try to add a little to your budget & make it a 10 foot wall. You won't ever be sorry.

8 foot is just useless for anything but 2 cars.

--->Paul
 
In my opinion, the main advantage of conventional stick-built construction over post-frame is that it's easier to keep the wall straight and the interior is easier to finish. Other than that, I don't seem much reason to go with stick. You can put up a post-frame building identical to what you describe. What I like about post-frame is that one person can do most of the work, although it's easier with a helper.

I would not go with a sliding door. It's not that much more money to put in an overhead door, and they seal up much better. The main disadvantage of an overhead door is you don't get the full ceiling height; the door has to be a foot or two shorter than the ceiling. And as Paul said, go with at least ten foot sidewalls; you'll find it's real difficult to store much stuff in an eight foot high building.
 
Thank you. I'm in Orwell NY between Syracuse and Watertown. Here is a picture of the 12x16 shed I put up this summer to hold garden tools and lawn mowers. My Allis was helping pull wagons of lumber from the sawmill area to the shed.
Zach
 
The other photo looks like a playhouse because I'm 7' tall and I make things look out of proportion when I stand by them. It's a shed for garden tools and lawn mowers and such. I use old free wooden windows to let in light, that's what the holes are for. The siding is rough cut hemlock and has battens on it now to cover the cracks. Since we have a little sawmill and a lot of woods it is very economical. The shed is 12x16 and only cost about $400 for materials since all I had to buy was roofing and fasteners. I made the roof 12/12 to make the snow slide off since I hate shoveling roofs and it is an annual or more frequent chore here once we get 3-4 feet of snow. Here's a picture of battens going up.
Zach
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Another thought to consider. Make your floor grade 1ft. above surrounding grade otherwise over the years the ground will build up around your building and water will run into your building. Also your sliding door will not work as good as when it was new. Raise the finish grade 1ft. and you will never regret it. I will never again build any building on grade. Always build above grade!!! Armand
 
Hello Gun. My 2 cents. Build bigger and especially if you want to park in it. My pickup measures almost 20' long and wouldn't park in an 18' slot. Allowing space to walk around, 24' is the minimum. My pickup is almost 8' wide mirror to mirror. A close fit that I don't like for smaller doors. 9' door is a minimum. The big door has to be at least 2' away from the wall to allow you to open your door when you park and 3' is preferable depending upon what storage you put on the wall. Wall storage shelves above the height of an open door works well.

Use laminated posts with the bottom part as ground contact. Use bracing on the posts and don't back fill them until the girders are up and everything is square to the world. It never fails, the top needs to kick an inch or two one way and the bottom needs to kick the other way.

Drill the holes extra big. No matter how hard you try to line them up with string, etc., you can never drill them all straight. A 3 piece of 2x6 laminate post will measure over 6" at the diagonal. An 8" hole only gives less than an inch of play on the sides. Not enough to compensate for a deep hole that may be a hair off. An inch off at the bottom of a hole may be 3" at the top of the post. If nothing else, if you don't back fill your holes, you can pull the post and reshape the hole with your digger.

Have fun.
 
I paid $12,000 to have a 30X40x10 pole barn build built in Indiana. Our building code required the post be buried 4 ft. My trusses are on 2 ft centers, 1 ft overhand, 1/2 osb, and shingles. Do the math, you may find it is cheaper Not to have a metal roof, not to mention with metal roof you always have the possibility of condensation and leaks. Highly recommend having side lights. Only have one 3 ft door and one 12X8 overhead door. I went with 5 1/2 in 4000 lb mix in the floor. Materials for the floor were around $3000. That included a 10X30 apron in front. Plus $500 labor for the concrete. My neighbor informed me that if I had a dirt floor, criminals would dig under the boards and break in. My bottom boards are 2x8. After it was built I spent a lot of time removing dirt from the sides and making the water run away from the building. A self leveling Dewalt rotating laser came in handy and so did my Terramite T5C.
 

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