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Detroit Diesels

H

HeyPigFarmer

Member
A while back on here there was a thread about Detroit Diesel engines and I got kind of down on them and a few people didn't like it. Well now I have proof why I don't care for the things. This is a link to a video I made while on a project I designed. This is a old (I don't know what year) Insley excavator with a 4-71 in it. Fresh rebuild with less than 500 hours. That day it took a jumper truck, almost a full can of either, and it had been plugged in for 2 hours just to get it to run. It was 25 degrees out. Then once it does run it doesn't have enough power to do much of anything good. The 690 Deere was faster. But check it out for yourselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NePOIkIIVQE
 
I have a 2-53 that will start in 3-4 turns at 30F without ether or pre-heating. How does that happen?

This problem is seen all the time after econo or blotched rebuilds.
Somebody throws in set of rings on the old style "S" series pistons, without measuring end gap.A set bearings on the bottom end without measuring. Then grind the valves and seats which increases combustion chamber volume and further lowers compression pressure. Now they toss in the old "S" sereis injectors and set them to "that loosk good".
Deck height, what is that?
Now these people try to start this "rebuilt engine" that is blowing by the rings, has lower compression than when it left the factory with the "S" series pistons. Lousy spray pattern from the injectors and late injection timing.
Well duh..........it isn"t going to start because YOU blotched the job.

New "N" series sleeves and high compression pistons. "C" series injectors.New valves and seats.Piston to head clearance within spec. Late series improved spray pattern "C" injectors properly timed.
Tear down that "rebuilt" engine of your and measure everything. And you will get laughed out of the shop.
 
I agree with Buickanddeere...Detroits are decent starters when they are up to specs. They are a direct injection engine, like Cummins and most other engines nowadays.
The video shows an engine that generates almost no smoke until it is nearly stalled. I think you MIGHT have a fuel injection/timing issue.
 
Get someone who knows how to rebuild a Detroit CORRECTLY,then do you silly test!You'll eat your words!

We have (2)3-71's and (2)4-53's in Olivers and all start with great ease at lower temps.The 3-71's are 1958 and 1959 model years.In addition,these engines have never been overhauled,but STILL start great!How do you explain that?? Must be luck huh?
 
I've never been a fan of Detroit engines. The noise the damn things make and the leaks they always seem to have are my main complaints... but from what you describe, somebody didn't do their rebuild correctly.
There's nothing wrong with the way the Detroit runs other than it's not big on torque rise... and it can't really be faulted for that since it had more torque rise than the horse it replaced.
Those engine designs are 60 years old. You can't expect the world of them., but when in correct running order they still do a lot of work, and they start just fine too.

Rod
 
Heypigfarmer,
The only reason Detroit Diesel 2 cycle/stroke are no longer made is their inability to meet polluption laws. A turbocharged 2 cycle DD will have as much H.P. as a four cicle engine and just as efficient in fuel consumption. With a strong battery even a 20 degrees they would start right up. One trick is to hold the fuel stop and worm up the combustion chambers first, and than easy in the fuel stop to the run position..
I have seen many DD 2 cycle engine burning and slobering oil out of the air boxes, stop using oil with a good tune-up. Here at the tractor pulls there are a few 3/71 running very strong, sounding more like a v/8 than a 3 cylinder engine, and very competitive.
Guido.
 
I guess that proves a lousy rebuild job was done.
The Detroit Diesel two-stroke-cycle engine is the first sucessful diesel engine ever made. It was being used long before Rudolph Diesel got his to work. Invented by a British guy named Clark - so if things were fair, we'd be using "Clark" fuel, not diesel fuel. Clark's two-stroke-cycle supercharged diesel engine was made in 1878. Rudolph Diesel's engine first came out in 1893 and it blew up. His second better engine was in 1896 - 18 years after Clark introduced his engine. Year's later, General Motors adopted the Clark engine and it became the Detroit Diesel.
I've got several machines with 2-53s and 3-53s. Also a dozer with a 3-71. They were also the number one choice for powering refrigerated railroad cars and just about ran forever. All great engines.
 
See I hear about all these magic good starting powerful Detroits but I still have never seen one in existence UNLESS someone has been into them. There is a guy from the Davidson area, Ken something or other, that has some Olivers, Masseys, and a Siemen tractor that run great, but they have been heavily modified. Every construction site I've been on that has a piece of equipment that is Detroit powered, plus the one truck we used to have with the 6-71 all started hard and ran about like the old Insley there. According to the guy that owns it AIS did the rebuild on it or whoever they farm it out to, but before the rebuild it ran the same but had more blue smoke and leaks.

Now I'm not calling you all liars, that's not the point. Just when I started talking about no power, hard starting Detroits you all told me I was in an altered reality. The video doesn't lie. The only stock Detroits I see is in equipment like this, and that is the result I see.
 
All the video proves is the fact this this particular Detroit wouldnt start that particular day. To make the leap from that to "all Detroit Diesels are junk" is a poor basis to debate from. Detroit Diesels have their drawbacks, no doubt (noise, leaks....ect), but given a fair chance, starting isnt one of them.
 
I never much cared for them either. Too much noise,smoke and no torque.Or else every machine had one WAY too small of size in it ?

When I drove a dump truck the Guy I worked for had an older Mack maybe from the 1970's era ? Other guys had something with Detroits in them. I could back right on into a mud hole easy and could practically idle along. Those guys had to wind theirs up and still could barely go from being bogged down.
That Mack truck with Mack engine sure was impressive.
 
One thing I NEVER heard about Detroits is they were good starting in cold weather. I owned many, rebuilt many, and driven many over-the-road trucks with them. If it's below 50F, you give them a shot of ether. No big deal. Very durable, simple to work on, but noisy, poor cold starters, known for low oil pressure at hot idle, and chronic leakers. But still, great engines and extremely rugged. From what I've seen, when used in big trucks, they were often part of cheap option packages and lacked power due to the small size of the engine, NOT the design of the engine. We were told to drive them like we were mad at them, and most of us did. Since they fire every stroke, very often smaller engines were used in place of four-stroke engines.
Any tractor that I can think of, that got an equal sized Detroit stuck into it, in place of another engine, often had MORE power, not less.
John Deere two-bangers are a good example. Go run a 440 gas powered John Deere (113 cubic inches) and then run a 440 with a Detroit Diesel 2-53 (106 cubic inches). The Detroit is a better pusher.
 
I worked on a few a long time ago.Like others said if you set them right,use the right parts they are a lot better.They still dont like to start when its cold.2 strokes just dont have as much torque as a Cummins or Cat or Mack or most anything else,but they arent too bad.You can buy a Cummins or Cat that doesnt have any power,wont pull,wont start very good either.A lot depends on how its set up.The reason they arent making them is they couldnt pass pollution laws for smoke,and to be honest all of them can be made to smoke,its just the 2 stroke Detroits had too many emissions.I think rather than keep on using the old design it was cheaper to build a 4 stroke motor that was more efficient,had more torque,and would compete better with Cat and Cummins.
A trick to start any Diesel motor when its cold is to crank a little,wait a minute,crank again and it will start a lot better.When you try and crank one cold,all that metal is cold and cranking a little,waiting lets it warm up,which helps it start a lot of times.
While the old Detroits were alright,and way better than what they replaced,horses and mules,they are a little outdated now.From working on them I know they arent all that tough,they have problems that are caused by not operating them properly(you have to be mad at them)and they leak more oil.They still can do a job if you can put up with some of their problems.Back when they were made thats all there was.Now there are lots of other choices that most people would rather own than one of those old Detroits.Macks have lots of torque,and Cummins wil show an old 2 stroke up bad on a mountain,but it beats using a mule.
 
I thought that the Detroit was Charles Kettering's brainchild circa 1937. The same 1937 design was marketed for over 60 years, not bad. The Detroit was our premier Diesel in its era. It was used in everthing from ocean going ships to fire trucks to generating plants to tugboats to World War II tanks to all kinds of construction equipment, highway buses, city transit and over the road trucks. Anyone in the D-Day landings at Normandy will never forget the screaming howl of the Detroits in the landing craft. And all these applications are the same basic modular design, from the 1-71 to the 16-71, same power assembly and injectors. So, yeah, in the modern era of electronics and emissions, the Detroit is a little outdated, but one must never forget its contributions in all the countless universal applications over the years.
 
Its just like Allis Chalmers fans,only Lord knows why they like'em.I like the ole 318 motor,and I like the series 60 detroit also,but we had a 6v-92 that I really hated
 
2 hour plug in just doesn't seem like a long enough time to get the heat up to help in starting. With less than 500 hours, it should have started a little better than that, but then again, Roadway used to run their "rebuilt whisper jets" in about all of their fleet because of cost savings. They would quickly become "addicted" to starting fluid, since they didn't like to easily start once it got below 40 deg. But like my dad's JD 435, one toot in the snoot got em running and they would start right back up if not left to cool off too low.
 
2 strokes usualy get faulted for fuel efficency but my old JD 435 with the DD 2-53 was sure easy on fuel. Darned hard to start in temps below 40F though!
 
Anyone else find it odd that the thing bogged way down with literally no smoke. Something isn't up to par with that one.
 
We have a HD5 Allis hi loader we logged with for years. No problem starting year round. Built a set of terraces with it and a 450C JD hi loader. Allis out worked the JD on half the fuel. 271 detroit.
 
Something is badly wrong that 4-71.My little 4-53 starts real
decent in cold weather with one 12V battery and just one whiff of
ether.It has good power and pulls a 21 ft Krause disk in 4th
gear.The local old time DD tuned it up for me and it made a lot of
difference.It leaks practically no oil.

Back in their day the old 318's were king of the road around here
and they sure didnt park them in cold weather.
 
I am not really a Detroit fan but we picked up an '83 GMC tandem and put a 20' grain bed on it. Has a turboed 6-71. It will run with my '85 White tractor. Weights are 59k and 88k. Detroit is 238 horse and the White has a Big Cam set to about 350 horse. That is 248 lbs/horse for the detroit and 251 lbs/horse for the Cummins. Gotta beat the heck outta the Jimmy! Ours will fairly easily start down to about 25 degrees. I can't really complain about it, actually it will get astounding fuel mileage... 6.5 mpg! That is no joke! Also have a 8V-71 in '70 GMC tractor. The rings are so worn you can easily spin them in the cylinder but she runs like a raped ape. Doesn't start so well though.
 
That looks like an H-1000. If it is it weighs about 25 ton. To pick up the rear end of a 25 ton excavator takes a lot of power. I agree about the no smoke on a hard pull, something kinda weird there.
 
Before you drive it remove grease tray under motor , ifbelow 50 degrees, Ether it up , Crank til START , and continue to idle , .....THEN ,, PLACE YOUR HAND FIRMLY IN THE DOOR JAMB ...AND SLAM THE DAMDOOR ON YOUR HAND !!!!..After pain subsides somewhat to mild trauma ,motor should be warmed up enuf and You will be pizzed and Primed and ready to DRIVE THE heck out of it for serveral hours , DRIVE IT LIKE YOU STOLE IT , Thats another term used to get the best out of a DETROIT ...........
 
Heypigfarmer,
This one getting major surgery had no trouble starting without eather at 30 degrees. It was plug in to keep it worm OVERNIGHT nto for an our or two. The heater 240V 1800 watts for the cooling system. There are heaters for the battery the oil pan and the fuel system. No excuse not to start in any very cold weather, except may be Syberia. This model was an 8V71T
mid 80'S
Guido.
v6781.jpg
 
WHAT? I can"t hear any more.

Those Detriots win the noise competition.

Sounds identical to my Hein-Warner with a 4-71. Neighbors a mile away knew when I started it.

I ran a 36" bucket and never had a lack of power. It would start to tip the excavator over first.

Rick
 
Oops, I think mine had the 4-53. Sold it a while ago and still waiting for my hearing to come back.
Rick
 
I have a DD 471 in an AC HD 10W dozer that I have been using about ten years clearing brush, digging ponds, etc. It starts with a shot of ether when the temp is 40 or above. It has all the power I need. I only run it when the temp is 40 or above. Where can I find a set of injectors?
 
Hello lemmond1,
Injectors should be easy to find. There are 8 or 9 type of injectors used on a 71 inline series engine.
HV53; 6s8; s55; HV6; s60; hv7; s70; hv8; s80.
Look at the valve cover emission blue tag, or take the cover off and look at the injector tag.
There is only 2 adjusted hights as i recall for all of them, eather 1.460 or 1.484 depending on what you have.
Let me know if you need more info and i'll dig the manual out.
Guido.
 
Hello lemmond1,
When you get the cover off look at the injector clevis. Put a screwdriver at the yoke under the pin and see if it has play in it.Anything more than a few thousnds you'll have to replace it before you adjusting the injector.The worn clevis will give you late injection timing engine will miss and smoke as well.
Guido.
 

Like everything a love/hate affair. Guy here runs them in nearly everything he has, even two Ford trucks he converted. Love affair.
 
Thanks guido. As soon as the weather breaks I will take a look at the injectors. I detect a slight miss in the engine but no smoke.
 
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