Ground wire guage and finding buried wire

Rob67 · Feb 25, 2009

Hi Guys,

I had to pull out the wiring from my house to my garage door gate opener. Thankfully the previous owner had put it in conduit, but at some point it had gotten cut and the splices went bad. I have gotten the correct splices and also permanently repaired the conduit. The run is appx 300' and I plan on reusing the 8GA aluminum wire.

My question is this - Does the ground wire need to be 8 GA also? or can I pull a smaller GA of copper (such as 12 GA)?

If anyone needs to locate buried wire or pipe, I would highly recommend this unit I bought from Brackmann Engineering - It was a lifesaver in locating my run of wire! Not bad as far as price, too!

http://www.brackmannengineering.com/cablefinder/index.htm

Thanks,
Rob

buickanddeere · Feb 25, 2009

This is why splices are not allowed in conduit. Only inside junction boxes which are accessible.
The only real repair is to pull the aluminum and pull in #10 copper without splices. Assuming #8 aluminum had the proper current rating.
What size is the conduit? Undersized conduit causes all manner of problems.

thurlow · Feb 25, 2009

Ye'ever tried a couple of wires bent into (letter) "L" shapes to find buried wires/pipes, etc? Ain't got a clue how it works and you might be off a few inches, but it works.

Rob67 · Feb 25, 2009

Hi Buickanddeere,

Thanks for the reply, I would LOVE to pull copper - but I can't afford it right now. Hopefully in the future. I have pulled all my wire out and put in junctions for my splices so I or someone else doesn't have to go through this again. The conduit is 1" ( I think a little small, but it's what I have to work with). My load (garage door opener) is 5 amps, appx 30 seconds of operation 2-3 times daily. I looked at the volt drop and thought this 8 GA is acceptable? It has been in operation for 10+ years.

Rob

Rob67 · Feb 25, 2009

I tried it, Thurlow. Must be a real art - I couldn't find a darn thing with 'em.

ScottyHOMeY · Feb 25, 2009

I use #9 steel wire, just like Grandpa showed me, about 1 foot on the upright handles and sticking a little under two feet out in front.

I was out back one day trying to puzzle out how the septic field was laid out, and the step-daughter couldn't bear to watch any more and had to come out and ask what I might be doing. I told her, showed her and she wouldn't believe it.

I took her out to the front of the house, handed her the wires, showed her how to hold them, pointed her east and told her to start walking. She got about six feet and they crossed right up tight, just about sideways. Had her put them down right where she stood, and then showed her where the well was, and where the pressure tank was inside the house. She was right on the line.

A new believer!

bc · Feb 25, 2009

I use braising rod for witching. Works great but could be off a couple feet. Walk perpendicular to your suspected pipe/wire run in a number of places to find it.

buickanddeere · Feb 25, 2009

#12 copper would be on the edge of ideal but quit workable.
A ground rod driven at the opener and connected to the ground wire only and the gate would be good addition.
1" conduit is enough for four #8's if memory serves correctly.

Sid · Feb 25, 2009

I have had that work for me as well Scotty. I have used wire coat hangers,brazing rod and plain old stiff wire. It works with pretty good accuracy. I have also missed two or three.

Ken Macfarlane · Feb 25, 2009

The old farts use that same technique to find water when drilling a well, they always have 100% success.

Never have the heart to tell them the whole area is on an aquifer and you can drill anywhere you please and strike water hehe.

ScottyHOMeY · Feb 25, 2009

Grandpa was known to be off a little and occasionally just plain miss one here and there.

I recall a summer when I was 14, my job was to build a new four-board fence around a two-acre piece at the front of the farm. About half the clay tiles on the front of the farm passed through this piece to the ditch at the front. Grandpa "walked" his wires on the front and back lines and about twenty feet in from each. We tried to space and set the posts to avoid them, but he was off on a few and missed one entirely. We missed more tiles than we hit, but we hit enough. It was worse on the front than on the back line. Don't know why unless maybe the ground being lower there had more moisture in it to begin with and maybe threw things off.

buickanddeere · Feb 25, 2009

I can't get any more comfortable "witching" for water with a forked stick or wire than with consulting an ouija
board for advice. It's an open invitation for trouble, specifically warned against and forbidden in the scriptures.

Illinois Farmall · Feb 25, 2009

Per NEC (National Electrical Code) splices are not allowed inside of a conduit...only in an approved junction box sized for the number of conductors in it. As for the size of the ground, the NEC has tables which will tell you the correct size per load and size of conductors. I don"t have mine handy at the moment or I"d be able to tell you. The correct way to repair this would be to install a junction box in the run or pull all new continuous conductors. By splicing the conductors, especially aluminum, you"ll have the same problem eventually.

Anonymous-0 · Feb 25, 2009

Had an Uncle years ago who was using a forked peachtree limb hunting water. He got to walking towards the pasture and that limb went down so fast it threw him over a 4 foot fence and a strand of bob wire.

ScottyHOMeY · Feb 25, 2009

Seenit donw with a twig, but I've tried apple and willow and never got a thing. Guess I'll have to stick to my wires. 8^(

ScottyHOMeY · Feb 25, 2009

Now ya got me curious. No idea what your scriptural reference is, but would suspect that that is why what some folks call "water- witching" is referred to by others as "divining for water."

glennster · Feb 25, 2009

i use the two steel wires to find underground pipes and tiles and such. the way it was explained to me, when the ground is dug it and something is buried, it disturbs the local magnetic field when the dirt is moved, which is why the wires cross when you go over a pipe, or even a clay tile. the willow branch deal for finding water, the branch can sense the water and that is why it dips down. i have had no sucess trying the branch trick. course it is good exercise walkin around with a stick !!

Anonymous-0 · Feb 25, 2009

If they salt the roads or you salt your driveway treat that aluminum insulation with kid gloves or youll be putting copper next year.I have never seen an engineer spec aluminum to be buried in an underground run.You need to post how many amps the equipment is.

Kelly C · Feb 25, 2009

I was a underground locator for years. I have never been able to do it witchin. But my buddy sure could.
Many times we were trying to find plastic gas lines with no locate wire with it.
He would take two locate flags and bend the flag end over. He would hold the two ends and walk accross the locate area until the wires would cross each other.
Mark that spot and dig.
He found them every time. Made a believer out of me. No matter how hard I tried I could not do it.

bc · Feb 25, 2009

I couldn't made those Y shaped sticks dip down or work. Most aquifers cover a large area so witch for water is beyond me. Know a guy who can witch old foundation locations and such with wires. Clay sewer pipe and plastic water pipe usually have a little water in it which helps locate it. Don't know if it is the conductivity of water or the disturbed ground that does it. Disturbed ground such as a trench for pipe or a former foundation will soak and percolate rain water at a different rate than undisturbed soil which could be part of it. I suspect water flowing through a pipe will create some magnetism.

Maybe our resident electronics experts can add something.

Phil in Pa · Feb 25, 2009

I don't claim to know how it works, but for me water isn't necessary.
Using brazing rods I can find any type of line whether wet or bone dry.
Most excavators know that underground lines are seldom where you are told if people rely on memory, it's been handy for me.

fixerupper · Feb 25, 2009

I tried witching with a couple of bent wires and by golly, it worked. The two wires crossed when I went over a buried pipe in the yard. Then I tried the same thing with one wire and everytime I walked above the pipe, the wire turned and pointed out. Why does that happen? When using one wire it points out but when using two they both point in. Jim

Bob · Feb 25, 2009

So, in other words, a difference in terminolgy makes it "PC"!

teddy52food · Feb 25, 2009

If you use one wire to witch water, it will point in the direction of the flow. Do you have electricity in the wire?

ScottyHOMeY · Feb 26, 2009

Dunno, that's why I'm curious.

buickanddeere · Feb 26, 2009

Because water witching is depending on the same "unseen" forces that make a ouija board pointer move.

Ground wire guage and finding buried wire

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