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Corn to Ethanol Not a Good Idea

F

fregienewbee

Member
I just heard on the news, that Michigan State has completed a study on growing corn for ethanol. They found growing just corn increases pests, reduces beneficial insect diversity and caused a $58,000,000 loss for Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin and a couple others. They didn't say anything about higher food prices, but that was also a "benefit." Can't wait until the BHO administation goes whole hog green.

Larry in Michigan
 
You might do a check on who funded this "study". It might be tainted. My guess is that the grocery retailers had a big hand in it. Mike
 
Yup,not to mention the funding from the Petroleum Institute.

Dirty little secret about all this "corn based ethanol sucks,sugar cane ethanol good" thing is this. For all the hype about Brazilian sugarcane ethanol and them being energy independent. They only produce about 5 billion gallons a year,where we produce more than 8.5 billion a year from corn. They're energy independent with it because they have so many fewer cars. I could get into the same thing about hydrogen in Iceland and their determination to fuel all of their vehicles with it and how they say the technology and capacity to produce it,still has them 50 years from acheiving their goal. But I won't. And they are just a tiny fraction of the number of vehicles that we have.
 
Larry,
Statistics from ANY study are slanted to reenforce the views of those who funded the study. Go to E85.com and find the complete opposite results.
 
How new was that bunch of garbage that you read. Sure seems to be a lot of old data when they try to run down Ethanol. Did their study show how much higher price gas would be without it try 45cents for a start and now that corn has came down in price has food dropped no it was just an excuse to raise prices. Do you know how many ounces of corn are in a box of Post Tosties you should as you live there. Maybe you dont even make them there anymore as there sure seems to be a lot of talk from people who live in Mich how screwed up the whole place is now you say Mich State knows all about growing corn.
 
ethanol is a bad idea---good ideas don't need to be subdized by the gov't

================================================

What subsidy does ethanol get?
 
Corn for ethanol has not been a good idea for several years. It was touted in the 20's and 30's as an alternative fuel, but production costs were too high. In the 70's they tried to sell it as a CHEAP alternative to fossil fuels, but productions costs again hampered it. It also gets less MPG then straight fossil fuel.
Just because there is a small amout of corn in a box of corn flakes doesn't mean a whole lot. Take a look for yourself - start reading lables - corn is in EVERYTHING, even BATTERIES. The inflated price of corn used for ethanol production sure DOES affect the price of food (GREATLY), despite what your local corn board trys to feed you. The food prices haven't come down with the price of corn (and other grains) because of greed.
 
I read last summer in a farm paper that the price of corn was up more from world wide corn shortages than from ethanol. Corn prices started dropping around here before the gas price peaked. This article claimed that ethanol was using a small portion of corn compared to exports. It also claimed that the use of corn for ethanol had very little to do with higher food prices.
I think the low corn price before gas peaked kinda proves the article was on the mark.

(figures don't lie but liars figure)
 
Gene Bender;

I just relayed what I heard on the news--which may have been spun. I do think Michigan State University knows something about raising corn as thet are a land grant/ag college. We used to call it Moo U. Didn't mean to ruffle your shorts. And yes, Michigan's economy sucks; we have a Dem governor.

Larry in Michigan
 
There is still corn left at the end of each year so we corn farmers met ALL the demands for food AND fuel. You didn't run out of food, so we did our part. NOW PAY us a living profit! Selling corn for less than the cost of production doesn't help us live nice.

Gerald J.
 
Here in southern MN, I have resisted growing corn on corn for a long time. I just prefer rotating crops. It has to be better to rotate.

Well, corn yields keep going up, bean yields are in the dumpster.

I have some fields that are on their 3rd year of corn, and some of the better corn I've ever had.

Most folks around here are cutting back on beans, going to more corn.

I might be slow, but I'm not totally stupid. Corn is the crop to grow here, and corn on corn works a lot better than some of these 'slanted' studies show.

That fella that was winning the corn yield challenge year after year? He was planting corn on corn. He couldn't put the field in beans, it would drop his yield potential.

I don't suppose ethanol from corn is the answer to our energy needs. But it does help clean up the air a little, and it does offer to stretch our fuel supplies a bit.

I understand the most efficient blend is in the 20 to 30% range. More than that and the lower btu shows up. Less than that and you don't get the full benefits of the ethanol to make a properly burning mix that combines a good temp, flash front, octane, etc etc in current gasoline engines.

Oil has an established infrastructure (shipping, pipelines, trucking, drilling equipment) mostly brought about by govt subsidies and grants to start industry back in the 30's, and continuing through today. Ethanol - or any energy change - needs an equal footing on that. It is impossible to change from the entrenched fuel supply to something new unless we pay for that infrastructure.

Solar & wind electric generation has far bigger subsidies per energy produced. If we want to complain about subsidies, then we will not ever change to any other energy.

Studies are nice, but anything can be proven if you are looking to prove it. We need to look at the big picture.

--->Paul
 
Another thing to rember, corn doesn't disappear when it is used for ethanol. The remaining byproduct, Dried distillars grain (DDG) is used for cattle feed.

My only question has always been, does it take more energy to produce the ethanol than what it yields back as fuel.

Gene
 
Wondered who even came up with this idea. It's heavily subsidized. Clip and paste from one article.

"Making ethanol, they claim, will help America achieve the elusive goal of "energy security" while helping farmers, reducing oil imports, and stimulating the American economy. But the ethanol boosters are ignoring some unpleasant facts: Ethanol won't significantly reduce our oil imports; adding more ethanol to our gas tanks adds further complexity to our motor-fuel supply chain, which will lead to further price hikes at the pump; and, most important (and most astonishing), it may take more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than it actually contains.

The greens, hawks, and farmers helped convince the Senate to add an ethanol provision to the energy bill—now awaiting action by a House-Senate conference committee—that would require refiners to more than double their use of ethanol to 8 billion gallons per year by 2012. The provision is the latest installment of the ethanol subsidy, a handout that has cost American taxpayers billions of dollars during the last three decades, with little to show for it. It also shovels yet more federal cash on the single most subsidized crop in America, corn. Between 1995 and 2003, federal corn subsidies totaled $37.3 billion. That's more than twice the amount spent on wheat subsidies, three times the amount spent on soybeans, and 70 times the amount spent on tobacco"
 
My Grandson is buying mixing over a 100 ton of distillers grain a week now and is adding another building and equiptment to be able to do more.
 
Of course, the same would be true of growing corn for food as all the production costs would be exactly the same. It would be interesting to see what their value of a human life would have be to make that a positive number. Haven't read that study yet, but the ones I have read before include every political, social, environmental, transportation and infrastructure cost they can think of for ethanol and treat crude oil as if it magically appears in a refiners tank as a finished product.
 
dhermesc, Off the top of my head and I am not sure of the exact amount that is paid to blend ethanol with gasoline to make E-85, but I think it is about .50/gallon. In addition the U.S. charges about that amount for protective tariffs on any ethanol that comes in from Brazil or other countries. The State of Minnesota pays an additional .20/gallon on corn ethanol made in their state.
 
The US government subsidises the trucking industry, the poor, the elderly, agriculture, all alternative power, big oil, airlines, banks and financial entities, and the auto industry, shipbuilding, and the list goes on and on and on regarding who gets government money.
 
About 5 years ago it cost about 10% more to grow corn on land than to leave it fallow. What did that cost the 3 states?

People were burning the plain kernels after drying because it was so cheap.

It was so cheap they put the darned corn in half the food known to man. It was filler.

Turning it into ethanol is just a market response to it being so cheap.
 
For me. At least we are finnaly doing some thing. Dont know whats going to be the next big this, but we have to keep after it.
National security issue are the most important thing to me.
At least with Ethonal the money stays here. Paying people who hate us and want us all dead is just stupid.
Lower gas prices are just temp for now. cant quit working on its replacement. too much ridding on it.
 
I think a lot of people miss the fact that that corn will be grown regardless of where or how it gets used. As someone else said, we carry over billions of bushels so the whole price hike due to ethanol causing shortages is pretty much a scare tactic by the ethanol bashers.
 
It magically appeared at 149.?? per barrel. Subsidised directly from the wallet at the pumps at a rate above 4 bucks a gallon.

Drill now baby and gone back to not in my back yard.
It will in time start back up and will have nothing to do with corn except make it cost more to produce.
 
Alot of folks are saying ethanol is dead.

A plant in Janesville MN not far from me recently went bankrupt before they finished building the plant.

Sounds like others will follow.
 
Gene, one thing to remember about ALL energy forms is that energy cannot be decreased or increased, just changed in form. All energy that is produced takes energy to produce it. Corn is used because it is readily available and is reasonably priced. It became reasonably priced due to the governments long standing "cheap food" policy. Government leaders for years encouraged corn farmers to develop new markets for this mountain of surplus corn that they had encouraged by their policies. Corn farmers took them at their word and developed a clean burning alternative fuel. We just took a sow's ear and made a purse out of it and now folks are castigating us for doing for ourselves. They think "cheap food" is a birthright. Mike
 
The ethanol today produces more heat energy than it took to produce it. Those who say it doesn't have not learned about modern production techniques and work hard at including things twice in the costs.

Gerald J.
 
"the whole price hike due to ethanol causing shortages is pretty much a scare tactic by the ethanol bashers. "
I haven't heard of ethanol bashers, I think food prices have been jacked up because of media hype and supposed excessive crop destruction during the corn belt floods, too much blamed on fuel prices, and the obvious crooks and theives. I think most any food product has a hard time maintaining a constant high price because people just quit eating it or grow their own.
 
Ken Macf"s comment"s right on; next time you"re in your wife"s pantry, eyeball some of the cans and bottles--you"ll be surprised how many contain some form of corn: corn flour. corn starch, corn syrup, high fructose sorn syrup, etc.
 
Ethanol may not be a bad idea in and of itself, especially using materials like switchgrass, but corn isn't really the crop for the job. It takes too much fuel to grow and harvest it than you gain back from converting it into fuel. There are other crops that are much more suitable for making ethanol. Corn has enough good uses as it is.

And again, the government didn't really bother to think it out, they just thought "this looks good" and threw a ton of money at it indiscriminately. :(
 
How true.Why buy oil from people that want to kill us? We are past the point of finding a fuel that will give more M.P.Gs. then gasoline.If it means not buying oil from someone that wants us dead,that is what we should be using.Anything that means importting less oil is a good thing.
 
Lets say all my inputs to grow an acre of corn is energy costs.

It cost me $475 an acre last year to grow an acre of corn. $150 of that was land rent.
So that leaves $325 for Fuel, Fertilizer,Seed, Chemicals and machinery. We will call all that cost energy which we know it is not.

My acre of corn produce 175 bushels of corn.

Those 175 bushels of corn makes 490 gallons of ethanol.

490 gallons at $1.45 per gallon equals $710 worth of gas.

By my figures it has doubled the energy.

Do a little checking on how much energy it takes to make a gallon of gas.

It is more than ethanol

Gary
 
Exactly. Corn growers trying to find a market for their product. As far as subsidies go,the government has collected more in taxes on the construction of those plants than it's spent on the subsidies.
 
I saw on the NBC news last night showing a man in TN using a pesky vine that grows a foot a day to make alcohol. He thinks they become the Saudia Arabia in the US. He's running that in his truck and garden tractor. Hal
 
Dick L Are you saying ethanol just appeared in 2007?

Here in the midwest we have been producing and burning it in our cars and tractors since 1977.

I have been using a 10% blend since 1977 with no problems at all.

Gary
 
I don't see any benefit in converting corn into ethanol, and I'd be hard to convince that one can gain any energy from the endeavour. I don't care about the money aspect of it; simply the energy aspect.
Agriculture for the better part of the past century has been predicated on the use of fossil fuels. It's what makes the system work.
If I'm wrong about that, I'll challenge anyone, here and now to go out and find a piece of land with little to no residual nutrients (N,P,K), and grow a crop of corn without the use of ANY fossil based inputs. So... you have no fertilizer, no pesticide, probably no fuel for the tractor, no manure from a herd of cows. No nothing. Remember, this is a closed system. If the theory holds, you can grow, harvest this crop, make the ethanol, fuel the ethanol plant from this piece of ground, etc. All energy consumed MUST come from this piece of land.
If the grand theory is true, you'll capture enough energy from the sun to make it work and still have ethanol left over to sell...



I'm not holding my breath on this one lest I suffocate.

Rod
 
Heavens no, we have had ethanol for years at some stations. Seemed to come and go. I have always bought it if they had a sign out.
 
I think $50 oil will do more to discourage corn-to-ethanol than some "study". I did hear on a news report that someone had devised a way to make diesel from coffee grounds, who knows what will be next.
 
You are so wrong in that- it takes less energy to produce it than what you get out of it...proven repeatedly. When proper enzymes are developed to produce it economically from switchgrass, and other bio sources, the industry will switch over.
 
Well,without looking a bunch of stuff up,corn made into ethanol is a lot better than buying oil from foreign countries.Everything I see for an excuse is some spin or propaganda.We have lots of corn.Its better to use it for ethanol than just store it in a bin somewhere.Or give to China or Russia which has been done before too.Nobody said how much oil is subsidized.The thing to use would be sugar cane,but corn works.The problem is practically everything you read,or hear on the radio or TV is a lie.Then if you start looking at who paid for the article,study,story,you see that its to promote some stupid way of doing things.Like the poison stuff thats put in gas that Ethanol replaced.Whoever it is that made that stuff bought lots of advertizments against ethanol,which is why lots of people dont understand it now.They have been running Ethanol down since at least the 80s.Some more of those plants going bankrupt is they were built by crooks to start with,big companies bought them,crooks stole the money,didnt have enough money to build it,high dollar corn that didnt last scared them,lots of reasons.If thats not a good enough answer for you,oil companies are so crooked,all you have to do is look up some of the stuff they have pulled in the past to see what I mean.Meanwhile ethanol will continue to be produced from corn.
 
150 million dollar ethanol plant at lima ohio shut down before it ever opened.There trying to sell it now for 18 million but have no takers.
 
Until something is found to be an equivalent or more efficient fuel than good old oil, "alternative" energy isn't going to work, without big daddy government using incentives (i.e. our tax dollars) to push it down peoples' throats.
Corn-o-hol isn't the answer to anything.
 
So what do we do with all the corn bury it in a land fill.

The US farmer could feed the world,but the some of the world has no money or anything to trade for it.

Even with all the exports, food, livestock feed and ethanol we still carried over 1.8 billion bushels of corn from last years crop.

So are you saying we don't use our land as a resource of energy when it does produce a positive return in energy?

If it did not return a positive how would anyone in the ethanol chain make any money? Economics saids that if you lose money at something you quit doing it. We have been making ethanol for 34 years now.

There are a few farmers and ethanol plants that go broke but that all goes back to mismanagement.

I have a couple of question for all that come to this forum.

What are you doing here if you do not believe in farming.? What do you use your tractor for? And what was that tractor bought new for before you got it as an antique?

Gary
 
I was just reading about oil being made from algae or pond scum.Sounds like that is the answer.That would end drilling,peak oil,foreign oil,and they can make it for 70 dollars a barrel now,which will go lower as they make more of it.The state of Arizona once properly set up could produce enough to supply the world.
 
50 dollar oil doesnt do anything to ethanol if corn is below 4 dollars a bushel.Sure it would be better for ethanol if oil was 100 dollars a barrel,but they still make it at 50 dollars a barrel.The propaganda about ethanol is really entrenched it seems like.I dont get why anybody living in the USA would be against ethanol since it directly reduces foreign oil we have to buy.Propaganda is always going to be out there,most of it from crooks trying to promote an agenda of some form or another.Best place to read about ethanol is on the ethanol website.Speculaters are responsible for most of what happened to food prices,not ethanol.
 
Switchgrass is still on the drawing board.They havent made alcohol from it in a big quantity yet.They keep saying in the next 5 years,which is nearly here now.Maybe they will figure it out soon.The selling point for the switchgrass is that it will grow anywhere.Corn acres wont need to be used for ethanol any more.It will grow where no other crops are being planted now.Then it has to be baled,stored,and corn ethanol plants can be converted to use just switchgrass or a combination.Interesting,but not here yet.
 
I heard of a study on the radio the other day about how pointless ethanol is. They said if every car on the road right now only drove 10,000 miles in one year it would still take 90% of the total USA's land to grow corn and to power all them. Uuummm?? That just ain't possable
 
Everybody likes to explain how ethanol is useless. What about when all the oil is gone ? Will ethanol be a good idea then ? What if those sheiks decide we aren't buying anymore oil from them ? Is it worthwhile then ? People have little foresight. There is no solve-all answer to the energy problems. Next best plan is a little help here , a little help there. Ethanol is one weapon against foreign oil dependence. Everyone who thinks gasoline will hold at a buck and a half , raise their hand.
 
The problem with the Lima plant is the designers goofed and did not know what they were doing and with their misteak the plant was using 5 times the water it was supposed to use so a lot bigger water bill to the city and to the end they did not have the money to shut it down and redesign the plant and their only customer was BP and they would not pay their bills on time so GO(Greater Ohio) could not pay their bills on time and their creaditors would not wait for BP to pay. It was a farmer that started the plant and he was just in over his head in design and business problems he did not understand. And then the state took 5 times as long to give the permits that he needed causing more bills to the contractors.
 
I missed the part about shut down before it ever opened. It did open and ran for a few months and that is when the design problem showed up.
 
Gary, my comments are strictly related to the energy aspect of ethanol. If it's being touted as harnessing more energy than it consumes, then it should be proven.

I understand full well that a lot of corn gets used to make ethanol for the simple reason that corn is cheap (relatively speaking) at most times. I don't begrudge anyone trying to make money on it. I don't blame anyone for trying to get the best return they can from their crop. I know full well that the economics of crop production aren't all that great most times... but I don't believe this crap that ethanol will be our energy salvation. There may be a place and a purpose for it, but an allout replacement for gasoline is not one of them in my opinion.

I also think that if you look closely at the economics of ethanol, you'd find that most of the money being made is being made at someone else's expense at one time or another. I don't beleive that there is necessarly ANY relationship between the economics of ethanol and the energy cycle of ethanol. It doesn't need to be efficient to make money. It simply needs to catch on and be fueled by speculation and various other market forces.

The cycle would seem to start with artifically cheap corn. It's then turned into ethanol. If the guy selling the corn is making money, he's doing it on the relative frugality of fossil inputs at the time, or a nutrient bank he has in his land that's getting mined out (which is basically what Brazil is doing). On the other hand, mabey he's not making money and depreciating his equipment to keep going...
With the rise in oil prices, ethanol becomes very profitable. Commodity prices rise. Input costs rise, and rise some more until things get in the strangle we're in right now. Oil is down. Corn is down... and there's a pile of high priced inputs in the system. It doesn't surprise me that there's plants going broke right now. There's apt to be a lot more I think. I also think agriculture in general is heading for a very rough time in the next year unless everybody actually paid cash for all the gear they bought in the past 2 years...

I don't know what everybody else does with all the land. Nothing I suppose... With the BSE 'crisis' we've been dealing with here for the past 5 years and the subsequent price collapse for cattle, we've simply downsized our herd. A lot of those acres are simply not producing as much because we've cut back on inputs. We're selling more hay now into the local horse market so that's taking up some slack... but basically we're doing less. Those were the choices we faced. Scale back or do something else with it. I don't imagine it's much different for anyone else?
Hopefully the coming year will see more market for hay around here, but time will tell on that. Traditionally this is not an area that carries a great price for hay...

Rod
 
I feed all the corn I grow my hogs and cattle, the original value added products. If more farmers would have continued raising livestock, instead of just wanting to sit in a tractor and combine two months of the year, we wouldn't have to put up with environment polluting mega confinements also. There is plenty of oil right here in the States, just need to drill and build more refinerys. When you start burning your food for fuel you are on the path to ruin.
 
'50 dollar oil doesnt do anything to ethanol if corn is below 4 dollars a bushel.'
Have you EVER heard of the term "economics"? Cheaper oil makes ethanol less competitive and explains ONE of the reasons why many of those plants are closing. I'm all for ethanol but it has to make economic sense.
 
Hell...Ashland Oil (now Marathon) had an ethanol plant in South Point, Ohio several years ago. Ran it two or three years and tore it down. Called it a "pilot plant".....aka a high dollar experiment using your tax dollars fronted by Uncle Samuel. Sure made a lot of cattle feed though:).
 
yes I AGREE TOTALLY, HERE IS WHAT I DON'T GET
THEY BEGAN SELLING ROUND HERE THIS SUMMER WENT FROM 30-40 FINNALY 50CENTS TO THE PENNY FROM THE POSTED 87 OCTAIN PRICE, WHEN GAS CAME BACK DOWN; WENT ALONG WITH IT AND SETTLED IN AT 30 BELOW TILL GAS WENT BELOW 2 BUCKS E- 85 1.70 THEN WAS EVEN AT 1.89 THEN 10 HIGHER [+30 CENTS AT LOWEST GAS] 1.35 GAS JUMPED .40 OVERNIGHT TO 1.75 FRIDAY
SUNDAY GAS 1.68 E-85 1.58 I HAVE NO EXPLAINATION
;;;;THE OTHER THING IS WITH GRAIN DOWN AND FEUL DOWN [TRANSPORTING] THE TWO MAIN BS REASONS BLAIMED FOR FOOD PRICES INCREASE, STILL NO DECLINE AT THE MARKET?????P,S BUY FORD STK NOW!!
 
Did you see my other response about the amount of ethanol per acre produced for the amount of fuel used?

Your hay will be in more demand if ethanol keeps going cause I will grow more corn and less hay. As will others.

One of the reasons for high fert. is Brazilian use. They are starting to replenish their land.

The confinement hogs ran me out of the hog business. Cheap corn caused confinement hogs.

If we would have had more ethanol usage sooner the confinement hogs never would have happened.

So we grow all this corn. We can't feed it all. We can't eat it all. So what do we do with it if we don't burn it?

It will never replace oil. It it was going to replace oil the oil guys would be building ethanol plants.

It is just a supplement to oil.

Gary
 
Yes, I saw your other response with the numbers.
I don't pay any more attention to the numbers from those studies than I do to the claims of the environmentalists. Both tend to support the theory that the author wants to support.
What I want to see, in hard proof is ethanol produced from a pure, closed loop system where no oil based inputs are used. If that can't be shown, then it would stand to reason that ethanol is actually consuming oil rather than displacing oil.
I don't particularly care than ethanol is made from corn to absorb a cheap commodity... but the reasons ought to be made clear.
It's quite clear from reading through the majority of the reply's to this thread than many people believe ethanol to be a great idea, and some beleive it to be a replacement for oil. I wonder how much thought goes into that position in some cases.

I don't know that I'd really say cheap corn caused confinement feeding though. It's no doubt a factor... but I look around here. Confinement feeding hasn't ended because corn got expensive, and believe me, we're a long way from you. Feed is expensive here, largely because it spends a long time in a car.
Labor and predictable production are the main things driving confinement feeding here. I'm speaking more in terms of dairy than hogs. We have no hog industry left, period.
I think that increasing financial pressures all the time are also driving operations into becoming larger, and in so doing, confinement is the only practical approach...

Rod
 
yep I am with you. Its not the solution yet, but is the way to the solution. Every dollar that gets spent on oil is a dollar that is gone from us. Some arab just going to buy another limo or make a golf course in the ocean.

Every dollar spent on corn, bio diesel ect stays here. it gets respent on some thing else.
All these bastages want us to be some colony or some thing. just some where to sell their stuff.
 
Well,what you are trying to say is that if oil is 50 dollars a barrel it makes ethanol higher priced?Trouble is when oil is 50 dollars a barrel the price of corn is lower.Yeah ethanol might be a little higher than gas with 50 dollar oil,but they keep improving the process.If they did use sugar cane it would be way lower priced.Major improvements to corn ethanol have happened since they started,which brought down the price.People probably wouldnt mind paying a little more for ethanol if it meant not buying foreign oil and the truth was told.Corn ethanol isnt perfect,but its a whole bunch better than doing nothing and having a surplus of corn filling up bins.Switchgrass is coming,so is algae oil,and that has to be better than buying it from countries that hate us.If there werent so many lies out there it wouldnt be so hard to see that ethanol is going to be what is burned in cars in the future.Less pollution,and as mileage to the gallon improves,so does everything else.As we improve what is used to make ethanol,and how it can be made faster,corn will stop being used for ethanol.If they succeed in making ethanol from switchgrass,then the process for making ethanol from corn will improve,and other things will be possible to make ethanol out of like corn stalks,cobs,maybe even weeds.Ethanol is here to stay unless it gets lied to death.
 
The advantage of corn is that it is realativly easily stored and transported.Unless you are in Florida or the deep south, grass is seasonal.I have heard that it only yields something like 1 gallon per ton.That is a lot f hay and lot of residue to dispose of.
 
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