Question for sparktrician !!

What problems with the way mine is hooked up?
Garage 150 ft from house, #10 /4 wire under ground.
220 receptacle for welder in that garage.with a 100 amp breaker box.that is protected with two 50 amp breakers.

The house has a 150 amp box with the garage on on a second breaker box to completely shut off power to garage if needed.

this is the way it was done by PO> I bought the house 2 years ago and the inspector said nothing about that.

I since then have a receptacle with alligator clips the attach on the wires coming onto house from meter to plug a radio into to know when the power is back on. We lose power maybe 4 times a year when it gets windy and blows trees down.

When power is lost I simply unplug welder and plug in generator.

All secondary grounds are covered except one from Generator. The generator has a 4 wire plug and the receptacle for the welder is a 3 wire.

The generator is never outside it stays on a dry cement floor on rubber tires and a rubber foot on the other end.

Just asking of your expertise. Do you see any problems with "Back feeding" to this hook up ?

I'm just a simple dirt farmer, but - you never did say you flip the main breaker 'off'.

I know you implied it, but you didn't say it.

When power goes out & it is minus 5 & the wife is cold & the kids are crying & you are worried about the water freezing up on the cattle waterer if you don't get power flowing in 10 minutes as you struggle to get the generator fired up because it sat too long.......

Can you say 100% of the time, always, you will never ever ever forget to flip that main breaker off? You are 100% foolproof on this?

That is what the transfer switch is all about. It offers 100% foolproof that no matter who is hooking it up -you, the neighbor, your wife - and no matter how much pressure is on your head to get this thing running now in miserable conditions - that 100% of the time it won't be done without forgetting.

You didn't actually say you flipped the main off _before_ putting the generator on, so - you kinda failed right there in your own description.


To me it sounds like your grounding is not right, but it will provide electricity as you have it set up. That is likely all anyone ever wants, they don't care about safety, just that juice comes out of the wall from 2 slots, so that is how most everyone does it? I'm not good enough to say more on the grounding deal. Seems like most folks who do their own wiring always interchange the ground & neutral wire any time they feel like it anyhow, so it all becomes a moot point - your house wiring probably isn't safe or right to start with so who cares how the grounding is set up? (How it seems to me...)

--->Paul

HMMMMMMMMM Until sparky gets here with his input and expertise, I have some heartburn you can take or leave as you wish. I retired from designing secondary power distribution years ago so am rusty and NOT up on the latest NEC like sparky likely is, but here goes FWIW

QUESTION:

Garage 150 ft from house, #10 /4 wire under ground.
220 receptacle for welder in that garage.with a 100 amp breaker box.that is protected with two 50 amp breakers.

ANSWER:

I trust at the panel where those No 10 wires originate that circuit is protected by a 30 amp two pole (interlocked) breaker right??????? If youre just using 30 amp wire to feed the garage
whats those 50 amp breakers all about???

Many of the typical 240 volt 225 amp AC Buzz Box Welders take more then 30 amps (still depends on load remember) DID I READ YOU RIGHT YOURE ONLY SERVING THAT WITH 10 GAUGE WIRE AND 150 FEET AT THAT. I wonder what your voltage drop is ???

QUESTION;

The house has a 150 amp box with the garage on on a second breaker box to completely shut off power to garage if needed.

ANSWER: If the garage has 120/240 volt service ran to it from the main panel, I hope there are 4 wires (2 Hots, Neutral, Equipment Ground) ran to it and I also hope the Neutral and Equipment Ground Busses inside that sub panel are isolated and NOT bonded to each other like in a main panel??????

QUESTION:

When power is lost I simply unplug welder and plug in generator.

All secondary grounds are covered except one from Generator. The generator has a 4 wire plug and the receptacle for the welder is a 3 wire.


ANSWER;

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

You cant (NOT saying it wont work, its just code violation and can be hazardous to your health) use that 3 wire setup as a backfeed for 120/240 volt single phase 3 wire service YOU NEED 4 WIRES
(2 hots, Neutral, Ground)..... That welder receptacle ONLY has 3 wires, 2 Hots and Equipmenmt Ground. YOURE MIXIN N MATCHING NEUTRAL AND EQUIPMENT GROUND
Also the gennys Neutral to case/frame bond (if it ahs one) should be severed when used to feed your home


NOTE::::::::: Okay im glad to help here all I can and a couple days ago spent HOURS explaining and covering all this emergency genset power and backfeeds and reasons for 4 versus 3 wires and why YOU CAN NOT MIX GROUNDS AND NEUTRALS etc etc its alllllllllllll a few pages back BOTH here and/or over on Tooltalk and theres no sense in retyping it all over again lol so take the time to look on those two boards for the longggggggggggggggggg thread where I previously explained all this and your questions are already answered.

As I posted there, dont you non electrical types feel bad cuz its IMPOSSIBLE to explain in a few paragraphs here what it takes books n books n years of experience to comprehend so do it yourslef if qualified or hire a good electrician otherwise cuz the life you save may be your own

Yall take care n n God Bless n keep warm n safe and MERRY CHRISTMAS

John T retired electrical design engineer

JimH SW PA.
The first thing I am wondering about (maybe not fully understanding)is you say that you have a 100 amp panel "protected" by two 50A breakers. This is being fed w/ #10 wire?? What size breaker is the #10 feeders hooked to at the main Panel?? I hope not a 50AMP. #10 wire is good for 30 amps. That is the first problem.
Now.
You are backfeeding a 50A welder recepacle through a sub panel to the main panel?(this is how I am understanding it). The biggest problem I see is the following scenario....

Electric goes out. You go out the garage, hook up your apparatus to the welder outlet. Start your generator. Did you first throw your main breaker off???? Lets hope so. If you dont.....
You make injure a lineman who is trying to get your electric back on, or, if the electric comes back on, kiss your generator good bye. It most likely is going to be orbiting the earth.(blow up) I am not trying to say what you have wont work, but, wouldnt it be easier to throw a switch, start and plug in your generator and be done?? What if you arnt home, wich would be easier on your wife???

Sorry Paul Yeah I do kill the power coming into the house shut off main breaker ,that is the reason for the radio Thanks for noticing. Guess in my haste I didn't cover all the bases.

WAIT... you are running a gasoline generator inside the building????

Can't be running neutral power on the ground system.
Your #10 wires are too light.
No transfer switch.
The two 50 amps breakers? I hope you are not running two single pole breakers that are not tied together. So if one trips or if one is operated on purpose. The other breaker has to be switched with it.
No wonder so many fires are blamed on wiring.

> Guess in my haste I didn't cover all the bases.

That's the problem with your setup. I'm not judging, just saying, we all cut corners, and in haste, oops we forget something.

You _can_ forget to actually do it.

The electrical types are working on the grounding deal, I'll leave that explination to them, here's my silly version:

When water comes into your house, it comes from the same pipe, some goes tthrough the water heater & then there are 2 pipes to almost all of your sinks, right? One is hot water & one is cold water, and you can't just join the pipes together any old way - you need to keep the hot & cold pipes seperate, or else you will get tepid water or no water, not hot and cold water, & it won't be right. You'll have water, but it won't be right.

Correct?

With the ground and the neutral, they do connect one time in your main box, but any other place they have 2 very different jobs to do. A person needs to keep them seperated, not mixed and matched.

It's just like the water system - it's easy to get water out of the faucet by just plumbing the pipes together anyplace/ any pipe, but to get the right water out of the right pipe, you need to follow the 2 pipe path & keep them seperate.

The nuetral & the ground are like that too - it's not right to mix them up, even tho you get electricity out of the socket.

If you mess up the water system, you might get wet, or too cold or too hot or no water at all. Bummer, but no big deal.

If you mess up that grounding circut, someone could possibly get killed. Doesn't always show up in the first 25 years, but - the possibility is always there.

That's the non-electrician version of the difference between neutral & ground. Probably doesn't help much. But it is important.

The ground circut is hopefully never used, but it needs to run from every device back to that one common bond in one box back at the begining of your wiring. If it has more than one path or gets crossed with the nuetral wire, it no longer can do it's job safely, and then if it is needed, it will harm more than it helps. No noe will know it's wrong (because it's not obvious - the wiring will likely work & provide electricity no matter how you wire it up) until the wrong set of things comes up, & zap.

--->Paul

http://www.reliancecontrols.com/ProductDetail.aspx?TWB2012DR

John

I did not mean or intend someone else had more or better information than anyone on this forum.

All information is valuable and appreciated And I don't tend to offend no one.

It is just a few topics below that sparktition made, simultaneously sparked a question in my now hurting head trying to comprehend all that was thrown back at it.

Yep with the door open. I have no spiders or mice in there and I open the big door and a window on the end.

Thanks Jim, hey theres never any offense taken to good questions like yours, were all here to help best we can, which is why I spent so much time the last few days

John T

A friend of mine was power-washing his hog barn with the gasoline powered pressure washer. He's done this for what, a decade? Two doors open.

About 2 years ago, he got overcome with the exhaust. He got helped out by his dad, I think it was. He said it was the oddest feeling - he was awake, but could not move. Just kinda slumped down & crawled to the door, but couldn't crawl any more. He said it was really, really odd feeling. He was pretty close to the open door, his dad was going by & saw him laying there.... Never had that happen before, probably 3 washdowns a year for a decade - no hint of a problem.

He has an electric 220 pressure washer now.

Not telling you what to do, & I really appreciate your posting on this topic and follow ups.

You have a lot of issues with your setup. It can work for your whole life as it is. That could be another 50 years, ot next time you use it.

A lot of people are doing what you do the way you are doing it. Once in a while it bites someone. My luck, that would be the only lotto I would 'win'!

--->Paul

It's pretty easy to get a sore head from trying to understand this stuff, isn't it?

1. #10 wire can't handle 50 amps safely, and the longer the run of wire is, the worse it gets so likely your 150 feet isn't handling 30 amps real well even. It's probably getting by because you don't often pull a lot of amps, but it isn't right to have a 50 amp on that wire. It will melt if you ever try to use near the full 50 amps on a constant load.

It will shorten the life of motors that use a fair amount of power - bigger compressors, etc. They end up running at less than 120 (or 240) volts and they don't react to that well. They run, but they get hotter & fail sooner.

I'd worry about this for your normal use of the shop building - you could have a real problem there with #10 wire & 50 amp breaker, that is not good all the time. The other issues only pop up when you are using a generator. This first one is serious all the time?

2. I read about one or 2 fatalities around me every year from folks running gasoline engines inside a building - even with the door open, the right wind eddies & it can get a person. Can get by with it a few 100 times maybe & never notice it..... Almost lost a good friend, with doors open on his building...

3. Nutral wires are there for making the electrical connection;

Ground wires are there to keep things safe;

If those 2 are not hooked up right. missing, or ever interchanged for one another, it possibly will make any metal surface in your house/building a live, hot surface. Not always, and can happen many times with nothing coming of it - but it only takes one time.....

4. The transfer switch or transfer plate is a requred item so we can't forget to do some things in a certain order. I know you & I never make any mistakes, but if you were a lineman would you trust everyone else living around you to never make a mistake? (I am joking with you, not at you...) It's just a lot nicer to make it a rule that everyone needs to run their own power supply through a transfer swich to keep everone safe from a pretty simple mistake. I think actually the linemen are fairly safe because of the way they do things (knowing people still backfeed....), but your own machinery could make a whole lot of sparks in a really bad way if you forget.

Other than those 4 items, good to go. Everything you are doing obviously 'works' as it has been working for you this way, but there are some pitfalls in it that make it less than ideal.

When I had my place rewired - 11 buildings on 3 runs from the transformer box - the inspector came & looked at the house, the transformer main box, and 3 outbuildings. He never looked at the other buildings at all. Passed everything. Now, I had it done by a pro, and they are familar with their work... But, passing inspection doesn't really mean it all is good and right all the time I guess.....

--->Paul

Links to the previous recent electrical discussions:
Generator Hook Up Discussion

Electrical Ground Discussion

Now I know what's wrong with your water thing you got it wrong. The water comes into the house on one pipe then splits to two, one hot one cold. then they come together at the faucet with one handle to set the amount of cold to hot. Then it all goes out of the house in one big drain.

I think you need a lesson in plumbing???
Walt

I havent seen this mentioned recently. Here in Oklahoma there are some meters, called CT meters which measure the watts with a coil around the conductors. With a CT meter, pulling the meter does not disconect the electric. Also backfeeding onto a line, besides being very dangerous, will also feed all your neighbors back to the line break. Likely your generator would overload and trip off.
John

Walt you are missing the point on purpose to justify your cob job generator connection as being ok.
As most people haven't studied and measured in the field what goes wrong and why.
Can you not take the word of the experts in electricity? Believe that the dryer and stove use four wires for a reason? The neutral and ground are different? And that it requires a proper transfer switch to connect a generator safely?