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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

14K GVW trailers and the laws?

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Bill Tremel

01-03-2008 17:06:31
69.19.14.36



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I live in PA and I'm in the process of purchasing a 14K GVW gooseneck to pull behind my 3/4 ton truck. I've been told by several folks that I need a Class A license to pull my new trailer. Actually, I've been pulling a 12K bumper pull for years.

So, I called DMV and they told me that I needed a CDL since I was haling equipment. I explained that I was not for hire and used my trailer to take tractors and engines to shows. That's it...

I also heard that law differ from state to state. I often travel to Ohio, WV and NY.

So, I want to hear from other's that pull trailers in Ohio, WV and especially PA as to what the laws are? I can't seem to find anything...

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Bill Tremel

01-15-2008 09:40:43
128.222.37.21



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 Re: 14K GVW trailers and the laws (official answer)? in reply to Bill Tremel, 01-03-2008 17:06:31  
Today I finally recieved an official written answer from PA DMV:

Since the total weight of the two are less than 26,001 pounds, you are not required to have a noncommercial CDL. You may drive this vehicle with your regular noncommercial class c license.

I plan on carrying a copy of this response from PennDOT with me at all times.

Thanks for all the replys. I learned alot on this subject.



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mike3320

01-04-2008 13:55:14
71.60.169.8



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 Re: 14K GVW trailers and the laws? in reply to Bill Tremel, 01-03-2008 17:06:31  
10001 lbs is key to a cdl. 10000 dont need it. i have a 10000 trailer i can put 8200 lb on and still be legaal since the trailer weights 1800. a 14000 lb goosneck probably weights around 5000 lb so u can onlt put 9000 lb on the trailer and be legal. a goosneck can transfer more weight to the truck but dot can weight u axle, span between axles total weight etc. the registration for the comb liscense u need is about four times more than standard. i didnt do it just to haul 600 lbs more?

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Owen Aaland

01-04-2008 11:16:45
65.165.246.41



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 Re: 14K GVW trailers and the laws? in reply to Bill Tremel, 01-03-2008 17:06:31  
Just to add another kink in the discussion, if you meet the definition of a commercial vehicle (used in commerce), the weight cut off goes from 26,000 lbs to 10,000 lbs as soon as you cross any state line.



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skyharborcowboy

01-04-2008 04:51:46
75.210.110.167



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 Re: 14K GVW trailers and the laws? in reply to Bill Tremel, 01-03-2008 17:06:31  
I go to quite a bit of ropings over there (California) and the CHP is always hassling us. I have been pulled over for doing 58mph in a 55mph. In Cal all trailers no matter what size has a maximum speed limit of 55mph. You are also required to be in the right lane unless you are passing the next lane over! If you just drive in the second lane and the CHP is a jerk I have seen people pulled over.

As far as CDL, when you hit a trailer over 14,000# (apparently rated and not actual load) you do not require a CDL but you are required to have a Medical Endorsement). I have heard the same is true for Arizona but I have asked a lot of people and you get different answers all of the time.

Joe

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Mathias NY

01-04-2008 04:24:45
12.4.26.248



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 Re: 14K GVW trailers and the laws? in reply to Bill Tremel, 01-03-2008 17:06:31  
I will preface my response by saying I am not an expert on the topic.

2 years ago my dad went through the same thing. He pulls a 14k gooseneck trailer with a 3/4 ton pickup. It gives him a gross combined weight of 19k. The New York DMV told him a CDL was not necesary since he is below the weight requirements. A DOT registration was also not needed since he does not transport saleable goods or haul for profit.

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Mathias NY

01-04-2008 05:22:11
12.4.26.248



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 Re: 14K GVW trailers and the laws? in reply to Mathias NY, 01-04-2008 04:24:45  
I have made an error in my math. The gross combined weight of vehicle and trailer would be 21k not 19k. Either way it is still well below the 26k CDL requirement.



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JoshuaGA

01-03-2008 20:54:14
74.244.197.228



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 Re: 14K GVW trailers and the laws? in reply to Ralph Buchanan, 01-03-2008 17:06:31  
Only thing you can drive with air brakes without a CDL is a fire truck. Responded to a few calls, read in the manual also. Better than two Ford dump trucks I drove. Old Lowbrakes and Nobrakes. One hydraulic, one vacuum. Opens your eyes when the pedal hits the floor.

JoshuaGA



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L.C.Gray

01-03-2008 21:51:20
208.193.186.128



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 Re: 14K GVW trailers and the laws? in reply to JoshuaGA, 01-03-2008 20:54:14  
Not true....

Anything registered as an RV requires no CDL no mater what size, weight or what kind of brakes it has.

The next thing is that it assumed anything with air brakes has to have a CDL. Also not true. There is no such thing as an air brake endorsement, however there is such a thing as an air brake restriction. If you go take your class A, B or even C CDL in a vehicle without air brakes your CDL will have an air brake restriction on it. I have owned a vehicle with air brakes and 25,000 lb GWR and it required no special license of any kind for anyone to operate it.

The CDL laws are supposed to be uniform between all the states after 1992. The CDL limits start at 26,001 lbs GWR or GCWR.

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Roy in georgia

01-04-2008 06:03:55
67.141.191.196



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 Re: 14K GVW trailers and the laws? in reply to L.C.Gray, 01-03-2008 21:51:20  
friend of mine went to get his A he already had a b took a truck and trailer without air brakes and they told him he would be restricted on air brakes even though he had a class b with air brakes in the test vehicle.



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L.C.Gray

01-04-2008 10:29:34
208.193.186.145



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 Re: 14K GVW trailers and the laws? in reply to Roy in georgia, 01-04-2008 06:03:55  
Yep... because the air test for the A takes in account the different air loss figures for a combination vevicle. You have to pass the air brake portion in the driveway before you will ever even be allowed drive the test route.

See, people have it backwards in their mind. Endorsements allow you to do things while restrictions require you or don't allow you to do things.

There's an air brake restriction that stops you from driving an air brake vehicle, but theres no such thing as an air brake endorsement that specifically allows you to drive one. Its really a gap in the law, a loophole... big enough to drive a truck through.

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john in la

01-03-2008 18:53:12
66.157.50.231



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 Re: 14K GVW trailers and the laws? in reply to Bill Tremel, 01-03-2008 17:06:31  
for a better explnation look at this link



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john in la

01-03-2008 18:44:49
66.157.50.231



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 Re: 14K GVW trailers and the laws? in reply to Bill Tremel, 01-03-2008 17:06:31  
Lot of differant views here but if you read the book you will see for your self..............

Trailer size does not matter till your gross weight rating crosses 26,000 lbs.
Once you cross the 26,000 lb mark the trailer size matters to tell if you need a class A or B CDL.

So the question is..........
What is your total GCWR????????

With a 3/4 ton truck you are in more trouble weighing 26,000 lbs + than just not having a CDL.

Now if you what to really open the can of worms and find the place you are not within the law lets talk DOT #'s because you do weigh over 10,000 lbs gross.

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Roy in georgia

01-03-2008 20:16:41
67.141.191.196



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 Re: 14K GVW trailers and the laws? in reply to john in la, 01-03-2008 18:44:49  
trailer classes are done by the weight the trailer can carry then by the combined GVW so if you go by this from what I can remember you should never hit the 26,001+ mark but a trailer with a GVW of over 10,001# would require a class A in Ga.on the trailer alone even if you had a 3/4 ton pulling a 12,000 GVW trailer you would need a class A with about 20,000#-21,000# combined GVW. length plays a role here too I think a trailer over 25 ft. requires a CDL also

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john in la

01-03-2008 22:54:56
66.157.50.231



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 Re: 14K GVW trailers and the laws? in reply to Roy in georgia, 01-03-2008 20:16:41  
Under 383.5 a person needs a CDL to drive a commercial vehicle.

"Commercial driver's license (CDL) means a license issued by a State or other jurisdiction, in accordance with the standards contained in 49 CFR Part 383, to an individual which authorizes the individual to operate a class of a commercial motor vehicle."

The definition of a commercial vehicle is.....

Commercial motor vehicle (CMV) means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles used in commerce to transport passengers or property if the motor vehicle-

(a) Has a gross combination weight rating of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) inclusive of a towed unit(s) with a gross vehicle weight rating of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds); or

(b) Has a gross vehicle weight rating of 11,794 or more kilograms (26,001 pounds or more); or

(c) Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or

(d) Is of any size and is used in the transportation of hazardous materials as defined in this section.


Now I would like you to show me where it says a truck trailer combo that weighs 20,000 lbs needs a CDL because the trailer weighs over 10,000 lbs.
To help you I will provide a link to the rules.

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Roy in georgia

01-04-2008 05:58:15
67.141.191.196



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 Re: 14K GVW trailers and the laws? in reply to john in la, 01-03-2008 22:54:56  
I tried to open the link but it wouldn't the laws may be different in la but if you look at the back of your license it will tell you a class b or c in Ga will only allow you to pull a trailer under 10,001 lbs.



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Larry in GA.

01-03-2008 18:22:49
216.96.40.35



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 Re: 14K GVW trailers and the laws? in reply to Bill Tremel, 01-03-2008 17:06:31  
Bill The back of my Georgia license reads. clas C may operate single vehicles less than 26,001 lbs GVWR. May tow trailer less than 10,001 LBS GVWR All recreational vehicles are included in this class. I know that isn't much help, but I haven't had any trouble in the several states I have pulled in.
Larry



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Gene Dotson

01-03-2008 17:53:25
69.88.222.62



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 Re: 14K GVW trailers and the laws? in reply to Bill Tremel, 01-03-2008 17:06:31  
Bill;
You will be under the 26,000 pound requirement for a CDL anywhere. Your 14,000 pound trailer with a 3/4 ton pickup will not have this high of combined gross weight.
Individual state trailer gas tax laws are a different matter and based on the empty weight of the trailer, so have a weigh slip under this minimum weight and you are okay. If a new trailer, use the shipping weight of the trailer, this is usually less than the actual operating weight.
I have pulled my 14,000 pound gooseneck trailer with a 1 ton dually truck form Massachusetts to Colorado and Florida to North Dakota and all states in between and have never had a second look from the police or ICC. Entered a weigh scale one time and was told I needn't bother them. I don't have a CDL and mostly haul my own property, though occasionally haul some for others. I am from Ohio... Gene

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Waterloo

01-03-2008 17:26:53
74.171.133.160



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 Re: 14K GVW trailers and the laws? in reply to Bill Tremel, 01-03-2008 17:06:31  
Bill,

Look on the back of your drivers license and check the GVW. It should be 26,000#. If you are not driving for a company or hauling some type of special cargo, that weight will be the total limit of your trailer and truck as if loaded to there limit. (example) The weight of your truck plus the capacity of your trailer. (Note) The tag on your truck must meet this limit also.



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JT

01-03-2008 17:43:21
70.12.155.238



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 Re: 14K GVW trailers and the laws? in reply to Waterloo, 01-03-2008 17:26:53  
Waterloo,
where it gets fun is when they add the over 10K GVWR trailer in the equation. I have an 18K GVWR trailer, pull with an F250, but only have 10K plates on it, no one at the local DMV can tell me what classification I need. Appears I need a Class A due to trailer GVWR, but no one knows. Jim



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Roy in georgia

01-03-2008 20:07:19
67.141.191.196



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 Re: 14K GVW trailers and the laws? in reply to JT, 01-03-2008 17:43:21  
the weight class is determined by the axle rating a tandem axle trailer with 7000# axles would have a rating of 14,000# and it requires a class A in most states just because you put lower plates doesn't change the weight rating only gets you a ticket for being over weight if you are over the tag. you can get a ticket for being over in a pick up if the rite person checks you out even if it is a private truck that is not being used for commercial use.

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Bill Tremel

01-03-2008 17:51:55
69.19.14.36



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 Re: 14K GVW trailers and the laws? in reply to JT, 01-03-2008 17:43:21  
And that's the problem. No one knows. Not even my local DMV. So what about those guys who pull 12,000 lb 5th wheel campers? You can't tell me that they all carry CDL's? I know several and they all hold a Class C drivers license like I do. Nothing special.



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Roy in georgia

01-03-2008 20:34:31
67.141.191.196



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 Re: 14K GVW trailers and the laws? in reply to Bill Tremel, 01-03-2008 17:51:55  
the camper is considered a recreational vehicle so it is exempt so long as you are not pulling it to deliver getting paid is the key on that one if it is your job it's a commercial vehicle.



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John (C-IL)

01-03-2008 18:24:49
205.188.117.74



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 Re: 14K GVW trailers and the laws? in reply to Bill Tremel, 01-03-2008 17:51:55  
Bill, the campers are RV exempt. If they weren't all of those 80 year old guys driving 50,000# diesel pushers with air brakes would need a CDL.

The only place you are really going to have problems is crossing state lines with an over 10,000# trailer. At that point you need a USDOT number, but you really don't want to go there. You just need to know the law exist. I have had my USDOT for 4 years, never displayed it and have never crossed a scale pulling my 14,000# Cornpro with my Dually, HD2500 or my Freightliner RV.

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JT

01-03-2008 18:44:22
70.12.155.238



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 Re: 14K GVW trailers and the laws? in reply to John (C-IL), 01-03-2008 18:24:49  
U-haul trucks are also exempt. It makes me nervous to see someone in a 22' U-haul truck. especially when they cannot see over the steering wheel and cannot use the mirrors to drive.
Jim



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Roy in georgia

01-03-2008 20:37:57
67.141.191.196



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 Re: 14K GVW trailers and the laws? in reply to JT, 01-03-2008 18:44:22  
most of the u-hauls I see have hyd. assist brakes with a GVW less than 26,000#. oh yeah! no matter the GVW air brakes require CDL



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john in la

01-03-2008 23:17:03
66.157.50.231



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 Re: 14K GVW trailers and the laws? in reply to Roy in georgia, 01-03-2008 20:37:57  
You really should get your facts straight before you try giving advise.

"no matter the GVW air brakes require CDL"



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Roy in georgia

01-04-2008 06:08:17
67.141.191.196



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 Re: 14K GVW trailers and the laws? in reply to john in la, 01-03-2008 23:17:03  
ok well, I am going on personal experience one of my co-workers got pulled over by the Ga. dot and gave him a ticket only on the AIR BRAKES I am not a dot official but they change the laws all the time and even these small ones get overlooked.



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JT

01-03-2008 17:23:55
70.12.155.238



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 Re: 14K GVW trailers and the laws? in reply to Bill Tremel, 01-03-2008 17:06:31  
Bill,
Illinois reads as follows: Drivers must obtain a CDL if: any combination vehicle with a GCWR of 26,001 or more, providing the GVWR of the vehicle being towed is in excess of 10K. and this is for a class A license.
Now if you are a farmer, you are exempt from the CDL, but still must take appropraite CDL test and the vehicle must have farm plates. also only go within 150 miles of home, transport products, equipment or supplies to and from the farm. I think this pretty well the same in most states.
This a brief summary of the book that is an Illinois CDL study guide.
Jim

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Tom Railsback

01-03-2008 17:21:44
75.165.203.225



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 Re: 14K GVW trailers and the laws? in reply to Bill Tremel, 01-03-2008 17:06:31  
All you need to know is what your home state law requires. The other 49 are required to accept it under "The full faith and credit" clause of the Constitution.



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john in la

01-03-2008 18:35:50
66.157.50.231



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 Re: 14K GVW trailers and the laws? in reply to Tom Railsback, 01-03-2008 17:21:44  
Sorry to disagree with you but even the federal DOT manual says that each state may set its own laws as long as they are to a higher standard than the federal manual.

Case in point..........
Just because your state allows a gross weight over 80,000 lbs does not mean you can run with it in my state.
Try going to Calif using 3" tie down straps that are legal in every state except Calif.

Many many differant laws as you cross state lines. Triple trailers is another.

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wdTom

01-03-2008 17:49:15
155.212.106.23



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 Re: 14K GVW trailers and the laws? in reply to Tom Railsback, 01-03-2008 17:21:44  
Maybe in the case of vehicles, but they don't accept each others firearms laws. Each state has it's own and you better know them. Wish it wasn't so.



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