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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Special Antifreeze for Diesel?

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pbutler

06-02-2005 11:41:15




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I saw a thread over at agriculture.com today where one poster was saying it is important to use special Antifreeze in Diesel engines.

I just put plain old Farm & Fleet stuff in my diesel last year. Have put about 40 hours on it since then but am now a little worried.

Anyone else know anything about this?




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buickanddeere

06-03-2005 11:49:05




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 Re: Special Antifreeze for Diesel? in reply to pbutler, 06-02-2005 11:41:15  
Propylene glycol vs. ethylene glycol ? Propylene glycol is not poisonous should it leak onto the ground or if some kid finds a jug. Propylene glycol does not damage bearings like ethylene glycol.



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Nolan

06-03-2005 04:58:57




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 Re: Special Antifreeze for Diesel? in reply to pbutler, 06-02-2005 11:41:15  
It's real. There really are diesel specic antifreeze/coolants out there. Cavitation like others have mentioned, and special gelling problems caused by I can't remember what.

That said, I rather suspect these are solutions to problems that almost no-one has.



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Dean Barker

06-02-2005 21:31:21




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 Re: Special Antifreeze for Diesel? in reply to pbutler, 06-02-2005 11:41:15  
The Texaco-Shell extended life anti-freeze has a special mix for diesel engines or for wet sleeve engines. That is what I use in my diesel tractors and combine.



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kyhayman

06-02-2005 20:24:55




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 Re: Special Antifreeze for Diesel? in reply to pbutler, 06-02-2005 11:41:15  
Particularly important in wet sleeved engines to use a conditioning additive to prevent cavitation. Also, there are various levels of silicates that are desired by the different manufactorers. When I had a dukes mixture of tractors I tried to match up the systems that specified additives to the correct package. Much less of a concern on parent bore engines. Never seen one with conditioner or special antifreeze added and never seen a pin hole failure. Almost a constant problem on our local school bus fleet, 466 DT Internationals and about 1 a year gets a pin hole. Wet sleeves, prone to coolant loss (cracking of radiators), equals low additive levels. Got 7 Ford tractors on the farm, some since new, all but 1 4 cyl turbo, parent bore. Never put anything in them but 50/50 discount antifreeze and never changed except when in the system for something else. Knock on wood but never a problem yet. Figure that on the 30 year old ones even if they do they have earned it.

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cannonball

06-04-2005 05:25:51




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 Re: Special Antifreeze for Diesel? in reply to kyhayman, 06-02-2005 20:24:55  
does ford use sleeves...my neighbor had his 7710 overhauled and had to bore it...was just asking..have nice day may god bless



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paul

06-03-2005 05:45:02




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 Re: Special Antifreeze for Diesel? in reply to kyhayman, 06-02-2005 20:24:55  
Was lead to believe the 7700 had the same cavitation issues, happy to hear I was worried for nothing? :)

--->Paul



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kyhayman

06-03-2005 06:12:57




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 Re: Special Antifreeze for Diesel? in reply to paul, 06-03-2005 05:45:02  
Never seen it if its the case. Im in the midst of a bunch of them (there are 4 of us farming together this year). Right now representing 18 Ford tractors from 5000-7740 series with 4 of them 7700s and 2 7710's. None of the 18 have less than 3000 hours and most have well over 10,000. 2 have over 20000. All have origional engines, discount antifreeze, never changed. Most of them get nothing but water in the summer.

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John M

06-02-2005 18:06:30




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 Re: Special Antifreeze for Diesel? in reply to pbutler, 06-02-2005 11:41:15  
Diesel what????



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John M...sorry

06-02-2005 18:08:04




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 Re: Special Antifreeze for Diesel? in reply to John M, 06-02-2005 18:06:30  
didnt see your oiher post,youll be fine with just a low silicate antifreeze.probably what was in them most of their life!



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Mike M

06-02-2005 13:10:17




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 Re: Special Antifreeze for Diesel? in reply to pbutler, 06-02-2005 11:41:15  
They recommend a low silicate type. Some jugs will say if they are. There is also an additive you should add in. Trade names like Nalcool,wixcool, JD even sells one called coolant conditioner.



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720Deere

06-02-2005 13:06:59




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 Re: Special Antifreeze for Diesel? in reply to pbutler, 06-02-2005 11:41:15  
Paul,

It's not that you need special antifreeze so much as it needs to be replaced frequently or special additives added to it to keep the ph in the correct range. You can buy test kits and additives to help prevent cavitation.



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caseyc

06-02-2005 12:18:35




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 Re: Special Antifreeze for Diesel? in reply to pbutler, 06-02-2005 11:41:15  
i know the newer trucks like the 6.0l power strokes and such take a special antifreeze and i wouldn't doubt the newer tractors do too but the old sure don't that i've ever seen or known. what kind of tractor do you have?

casey



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pbutler

06-02-2005 12:50:36




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 Re: Special Antifreeze for Diesel? in reply to caseyc, 06-02-2005 12:18:35  
And a 74 Deere 4630.



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pbutler

06-02-2005 12:49:23




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 Re: Special Antifreeze for Diesel? in reply to caseyc, 06-02-2005 12:18:35  
Early 80's Massey Ferguson 255.



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Jon H

06-02-2005 13:51:36




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 Re: Special Antifreeze for Diesel? in reply to pbutler, 06-02-2005 12:49:23  
Most antifreeze makers market a heavy duty coolant with the correct additive package to protect a diesel from corrosion and cylinder liner cavitation pitting. You can buy the coolant conditioner and test strips to test your coolant for the correct additive concentration from most tractor and heavy duty truck places. I used to buy cheap car antifreeze and bring it up to diesel specs by adding the coolant conditioner,untill I found that I could buy heavy duty diesel rated coolant with the correct additive package already in it cheaper than my home brew mix. When I bought my first coolant additive test kit(fleetguard) I checked several of my rigs and found almost no additives to protect a diesel from cavitation damage,so I checked a new 50/50 mix of the stuff I was using and found it not much better. I suspected I was doing the test wrong,so I called the help number on the test kit. The fleetguard guy asked what antifreeze I was using. I told him I was using a cheap farm store brand antifreeze. He said that most of that stuff that does not say"for heavy duty diesel engines" on the jug has only enough additives to protect a gasoline engine for a year,and is not nearly good enough for a diesel.

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Steve(OR)

06-02-2005 16:06:38




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 Re: Special Antifreeze for Diesel? in reply to Jon H, 06-02-2005 13:51:36  
Given that the coolant should never come in contact with either the combustion, exhaust or lubrication, why would a diesel have different coolant additive needs than a gasoline engine?

What is cylinder liner cavitation pitting? It sounds like it is caused by movement of the cylider against the block. Does coolant somehow come in contact with the liner? If it did wouldn't it also contaminate the crank case?

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fixerupper

06-02-2005 17:02:09




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 Re: Special Antifreeze for Diesel? in reply to Steve(OR), 06-02-2005 16:06:38  
O.K. here goes, this is the way I learned it and someone please correct me if I am wrong. The pitting occures on the side of the liner that is exposed to the anti-freeze. When the piston is on the way down on the power stroke, the piston rod is pushing sideways on the crankshaft, which pushes the side of the piston against the cylinder wall on one side. This creates a lot of heat on that side of the liner so the anit-freeze that is cooling that side gets hot enough to form little bubbles, which collapse violently enough to erode a little metal away from the liner. If it does this long enough pinholes will go right through the liner and anti-freeze will leak through to the piston and end up in the crank case. This seems to happen more in turbo-charged diesels because they have more power per cubic inch and so they drive the piston down harder. The proper additives to the anit-freeze slow down this process. Can someone who knows more than me take this a little farther?Jim

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Jerry/MT

06-02-2005 17:34:42




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 Re: Special Antifreeze for Diesel? in reply to fixerupper, 06-02-2005 17:02:09  
It is my understanding that the cavitation pitting occurs because because of the collapse of a cavitation bubble caused by the vibration of the cylinder sleeve that is excited by the detonation of the fuel/air mixture in the cylinder. The very slight rapid motion of the liner causes a small vacuum to be formed as the piston liner moves slightly and this causes a cavitation bubble to form. As the liner moves back, the pressure increases slightly and causes the cavitation bubble to collapse and the forces of the water on the metal eventually cause the liner to pit. Collapsing of a cavitation bubble(s) causes pitting on high speed boat propellers and also in centrifugal pumps and the problem is usually overcome by the use of special materials that resist the pitting.

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Jon H

06-02-2005 20:10:04




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 Re: Special Antifreeze for Diesel? in reply to Jerry/MT, 06-02-2005 17:34:42  
Thats pretty close to what I read in a little booklet put out by Caterpiller. The normal detonation shock wave at fuel lightoff in the cylinder liner of a diesel engine causes certain areas of the cylinder liner to ring like a bell. The vibration of this area of the liner will cause bubbles to form then collapse with enough force to scour the liner down to bare metal. No problem if the coolant additives have prevented any rust or corrosion from forming on the liner.The problems start when the coolant is allowed to get old with all the additives depleted and the coolant turned somewhat acid (As ethelene glycol antifreeze ages,heat and air slowly converts it to sulferic acid). When the liners begain to get rust on the outside from sour coolant,When these vibrating"hot spots" on the liner ring,the cavatation bubble scours the rust off,down to bare metal. When you shut the engine down for a matter of hours or days with sour coolant,these cavatation scoured spots rust again.When the engine is restarted,cavation again scours the rust off that spot down to bare metal. This cycle repeats itself untill a little worm hole is rusted completly through the liner,and coolant leaks into the cylinder/crankcase. Cavatation damage seems to be worse in engines with tall,unsupported thin sleeves which vibrate worse than short thick liners. The 300 and 400 series IH engines were bad for this,You either kept the coolant sweet or you faced an early engine overhaul. Many newer engine designs have a mid support on the liner to dampen the vibration and lessen liner cavatation.
Diesel engines need the special coolant additive package because they run under constant detonation,while a gas engine does not.

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KRUSS

06-02-2005 13:36:36




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 Re: Special Antifreeze for Diesel? in reply to pbutler, 06-02-2005 12:49:23  
Up here in Manitoba, Canada we have been running diesels since 1960. Antifreeze around here means good to 45 or 50 below F. Only in the last 15 years did I ever HEAR of diesel antifreeze. I wouldn't worry because you didn't use it. I would however use it in the future as I believe you will not have to change it as often. Just my opinion.



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Ray,IN

06-02-2005 21:12:18




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 Re: Special Antifreeze for Diesel? in reply to KRUSS, 06-02-2005 13:36:36  
Low silicate anti-freeze is usually required for diesel engines. If the engine has sleeves the explanations JerryMT,Joe and fixerupper gave are correct. The additive "DCA" is required to forestall the damage. If you want to just add the additive yourself, your local Ford dealer parts dept sells it. The premixed diesel anti-freeze is the best option as stated. I don't use the test kit, it's just easier to change the stuff and take the drained anti-freeze to the recycling center every two years. The cost is small compared to re-sleeving an engine, and repairing whatever else damage it caused.

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ed1

06-03-2005 10:52:23




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 Re: Special Antifreeze for Diesel? in reply to Ray,IN, 06-02-2005 21:12:18  
You got it Ray. In my neck of the woods that has long been converted from farm country they don't even know what diesel antifreeze is and try to sell me the pink stuff - bad news.

So, I use the old fashon green stuff and put in the additive DCA-4, or the Ford equivlant as powerstroke pickup engin is an IH. The bottle even looks the same.

Non-wet sleve engines dont seem to have the problem. It's definatly a problem with the 312, 414, 436, 466 IH engines, Ford pickup and GM pickup diesels. I understand that it's not limited to a specific brand name.

If you think or even wonder if you have a wet sleve engine I'd put in the additive.

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