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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

What is a 1,000 rpm PTO for?

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Quebec Bob

02-24-2005 13:30:10
207.35.128.158



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What kind of machinery is a 1,000 rpm PTO made to accomodate. I keep seeing the ads say 540/1000 and have no experience with this. Thanks




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Leroy

02-25-2005 12:57:58
216.255.40.65



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 Re: What is a 1,000 rpm PTO for? in reply to Quebec Bob, 02-24-2005 13:30:10  
Everybody tells why the 1,000 RPM PTO but do not say what machinery, so here goes, large forage harvester, large pulltype combine, large batwing mowers, I am sure there are more, anyone care to add more?



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farmweld

02-25-2005 04:59:00
198.234.252.9



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 Re: What is a 1,000 rpm PTO for? in reply to Quebec Bob, 02-24-2005 13:30:10  
i dont know about anything else, but on the farm we use it for the grain buggys that have auger unload. many other uses i'll bet.
farmweld



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paul

02-24-2005 18:40:15
209.23.145.51



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 Re: What is a 1,000 rpm PTO for? in reply to Quebec Bob, 02-24-2005 13:30:10  
Many tractors over 65 hp will offer both. Above 150 hp they often only offer the 1000 rpm. Due to the amount of hp needed to transfer, the 540 shaft will snap off.

IH got to using some very rare earth metals to make their 540 pto stubs. Some of those big grain augers (13 inch, 70-100 feet long) use direct drive 540 pto - but they also need about 120 hp. A lot of broken pto stuff on those deals....

Also some of the small compact tractors offer both 540 & 1000 rpm on their 15-30 hp tractors. Some of the small implements use the higher speeds, then they can use cheaper driveling parts.

--->Paul

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J. Schwiebert

02-24-2005 15:39:47
209.143.23.169



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 Re: What is a 1,000 rpm PTO for? in reply to Quebec Bob, 02-24-2005 13:30:10  
All this related to the fact that PTO shafts transmitt torque. By increasing the speed from 540 to 1000 you can transmitt almost twice the torque. The answer with the drive shaft is a pretty good example of what is happening. Think of this, 600 Horsepower truck, large driveshaft 600 horsepower NASCAR engine. Car has a much smaller shaft, why the engine runs probably 4 times as fast as the truck, thus the torque getting to the rear wheels is 1/4 of what is going through the truck's driveshaft. I had an 80 H. P. tractor on the dynometer once and pulled down to check the torque and broke the shaft righ off. John Deere had the first 1000 RPM PTO toward the end of the 2 cylinders.

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buickanddeere

02-24-2005 17:40:02
192.75.48.150



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 Re: What is a 1,000 rpm PTO for? in reply to J. Schwiebert, 02-24-2005 15:39:47  
Increaisng the rpms allows the same shaft to carry more HP at the same torque level. HP (rate of doing work) = force over a distance.



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ChrisL

02-24-2005 15:28:44
216.254.224.232



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 Re: What is a 1,000 rpm PTO for? in reply to Quebec Bob, 02-24-2005 13:30:10  
plus there are the easy reasons - like I have a 1000 rpm sprayer pump - it will operate at a lot of speeds (within reason) but the faster it spins the more it pumps - so you use 1000 rpm pto - it pumps more



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greenbeanman in Kansas

02-25-2005 07:18:55
4.244.105.15



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 Re: What is a 1,000 rpm PTO for? in reply to ChrisL, 02-24-2005 15:28:44  
That was my first use of a 1000 rpm pto, a spray pump.



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ChrisL

02-24-2005 15:26:46
216.254.224.232



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 Re: What is a 1,000 rpm PTO for? in reply to Quebec Bob, 02-24-2005 13:30:10  
part of it is this - imagine this scenario

don't think tractors for a moment - think something like car driveshafts. well maybe think like a huge truck driveshaft.....

now picture these 2 scenarios -

the truck has all the rear wheels locked up (it has been setting for years) - you start it up - put it in super super low gear and slowly let out the clutch - with the engine only idling - oops twists the driveshaft right off.....engine was only putting out maybe 5% of its total power

so you go and fix the driveshaft , loosen up the wheels - get it all running and load it up with about 35 ton of stuff in the back - you take off cruising along in super super low at about 3 mph - you start to go up a hill the engine works a little harder so u give it some more throttle - the hill gets steeper - you give it some more throttle - the hill gets really steep - you have this thing all the way to the floor just to keep going at 3 mph - and you think to your self now the engine is putting out full power and the driveshaft isn't breaking - the difference is speed - the faster a shaft spins the thinner it can be and still transmit the same amount of power - think about the last time you twisted off a shaft - did it happen at high speed - no - you always twist and break shafts at the very lowest speeds - once they have speed they can take a lot more

so now if you are an implement designer you can make all your shafts thinner as long as they turn faster - so any implement that is made to put on a 1000 rpm can be made cheaper and still transmit a lot of power.

For example look at silage cutters lets say the main driveline is some 1/8" 2.5" diameter pipe (I am making these numbers up) and you send it out as a 540 rpm unit - the farmer hooks it up to his 60 hp tractor starts to work it some and snap - the driveshaft breaks - he goes gets another one - but this time he puts it on a 1000 rpm shaft - he turns it on starts working it, a little harder, a little harder , and finaly the tractor has no more power to give - in other words that same driveshaft is more than capable of handling the power from the tractor - just because it is spinnging faster -

now granted all these implements need to be geared right - in the above example the silage cutter head (if not the whole thing) would be going too fast so it would have to be desinged with the speed coming in as a known factor - for example if the guy now knows he is going to tell people to use a 1000 rpm input he will change the size of some pulleys and gears somewhere to slow the head to the proper speed again.......but if the driveshaft is spinning faster he knows it will take all the power a certain size tractor will put out......

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buickanddeere

02-24-2005 15:21:33
192.75.48.150



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 Re: What is a 1,000 rpm PTO for? in reply to Quebec Bob, 02-24-2005 13:30:10  
Doubling the speed alows twice the HP to be carried by the same sized pto shaft. Same reason why a 24V cranking system out performs a 12V system. Or why a 2HP 240V motor connection is supperior to a 2HP 120V connection. A 540 rpm pto shaft/u-joints for a 150 HP machine would require using a small crane to lift the shaft when hooking onto the tractor.



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hay

02-24-2005 14:17:19
207.218.202.48



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 Re: What is a 1,000 rpm PTO for? in reply to Quebec Bob, 02-24-2005 13:30:10  
years ago i had a small bolens/iseki diesel tractor ( 21 pto hp ) and it had a 540 and 1000 pto on it. never did understand why such a little tractor had both. only used the 540 pto, except once when i tried the 1000 for a few minutes with my cutter. sure did make that thing run fast.



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Mike (WA)

02-24-2005 17:05:30
209.213.153.111



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 Re: What is a 1,000 rpm PTO for? in reply to hay, 02-24-2005 14:17:19  
I was running a baler with an IH 674, which was about 60 HP- and noisy! Remember thinking how nice it would have been to have 1000 PTO, so I could run the tractor at about half throttle and bring a little peace into my life.



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thurlow

02-24-2005 18:11:38
65.255.98.5



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 Re: What is a 1,000 rpm PTO for? in reply to Mike (WA), 02-24-2005 17:05:30  
Mike, unless you're talking about something just "cobbled" together; engine speed will be the same for either 1000 or 540 rpm.........with a properly set-up piece of equipment. I think I understand what you're saying, but don't see it happening in the "real" world.



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leaddog

03-01-2005 17:13:46
4.14.225.83



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 Re: What is a 1,000 rpm PTO for? in reply to thurlow, 02-24-2005 18:11:38  
I use mine with my brushhog and snowblower. I can run mine with half the engine rpms and it is alot quieter. I have one of the new century 3045 (40hp-pto) and it runs a 7ft snowblower great. It has a lever that shifts from 1000 to 540
leaddog



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Jon H

02-24-2005 13:40:04
69.26.17.144



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 Re: What is a 1,000 rpm PTO for? in reply to Quebec Bob, 02-24-2005 13:30:10  
1000 rpm pto is for equipment that requires more than 60 HP which is about the recommended limit for a 540 pto. The 1-3/8 inch 1000 rpm shaft is used up to about 160 HP. Above that level they go to a 1-3/4 inch 1000/1100 rpm shaft for equipment at or over 200 HP. An example is my 1482 pulltype combine pulled by my 225 HP Steiger 4 WD tractor uses the 1-3/4 inch 1100 rpm pto shaft.



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thurlow

02-24-2005 14:35:29
65.255.98.37



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 Re: What is a 1,000 rpm PTO for? in reply to Jon H, 02-24-2005 13:40:04  
Hey Jon, not to be picky, but we've had a lot of equipment which came 540 from the factory which required 80-100 hp to run; 2-row silage cutter and 12 ft A-C rotary cutter come immediately to mind......under load, each would make a 4020 talk....



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Hugh MacKay

02-24-2005 14:56:06
64.228.11.42



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 Re: What is a 1,000 rpm PTO for? in reply to thurlow, 02-24-2005 14:35:29  
thurlow: To answer this question I would say somewhere between 60 and 100 hp. I don't think there is any exact cutoff. Before the days of 60+ hp tractors I had little pto shaft problems. Ran the NH haybine and baler with 300, 560 and 656, and the tongues of both had the paint wore off both side from tire marks turning. After 1066 and 1000 rpm I had very little pto shaft problems. The broken U joints, telescopes, shafts, etc. around my shop came from 60 to 100 hp use of 540 pto.

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Allan in NE

02-24-2005 13:35:17
148.78.243.24



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 Re: What is a 1,000 rpm PTO for? in reply to Quebec Bob, 02-24-2005 13:30:10  
Hi Bob,

Almost anything that takes a lot of ponies to pull needs the 1000 rpm PTO because the 540 drivelines cannot handle the bigger stress loads. If I recall, the split point is somewhere around 80 to 100 horse.

That's what the big boys tell me any way.

Allan



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RandyS

02-24-2005 14:45:50
24.151.18.79



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 Re: What is a 1,000 rpm PTO for? in reply to Allan in NE, 02-24-2005 13:35:17  
We use it on our 3PH chipper. Only 20 hp.



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HarryG

02-24-2005 14:59:50
216.227.56.235



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 Re: What is a 1,000 rpm PTO for? in reply to RandyS, 02-24-2005 14:45:50  
540 RPM with 1 3/8" is the most common on tractors, sure there are the bigger HP sizes too. At one time before standardization every manufacturer used their own size shaft, # of splines, PTO speed. Made attachments unique to only one barnd tractor. Not good for the equipment owner for resale or if wnating to borrow/lend an implement also made too many different parts etc.
I know my Cub LO Boy uses a wierd size shaft and speed too and turns wrong direction. Go figuire. I know 1000 RPM is used by some PTO driven generators. Some of the speeds I can remember are 540, 720, 1000, 2000. and the shaft sizes and number of splines made it a headache. I'm glad for some type of standard.

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buickanddeere

02-24-2005 17:53:29
192.75.48.150



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 Re: What is a 1,000 rpm PTO for? in reply to HarryG, 02-24-2005 14:59:50  
Largest 540 rpm pto generator I've seen is the 60KW NorthStar. That's 90HP which is plenty but surge loads when starting large motors will take all the HP the tractor has. Too large for 540 rpms truth be told if operated near full capacity. Usually 50KW is the largest 540 and the 30,40 & 50 KW's are usually offered with 1000rpm shafts. At the tail end of two cylinder Deere production. The 430,435,440,530,630 & 730 could be ordered with a 1000rpm pto. The 840 industrial units had a 1000 output starting serial number 8400900. No more than 300 of those ever made. Mother Deere also sold field installation kits to internaly convert the 20 & 30 series. They also sold the external gear box rpm changers and longer drawbars. I would enjoy running across some of that 1000rpm two cylinder stuff.

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WeirdDeere

02-25-2005 00:10:34
67.129.204.10



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 Re: What is a 1,000 rpm PTO for? in reply to buickanddeere, 02-24-2005 17:53:29  
Buickanddeere,

I was just looking in the 840 parts book, and it looks like the 1000RPM change was just in the 90 degree gearbox. Everything on the tractor was the same (except for a different shaft going into the gearbox replacing the normal PTO)

I'm laughing right now...imagine trying to hook the vertical 1000RPM shaft to a normal farm implement. I wonder how long U-joints would last?

Brandon
My Industrial John Deere website
John Deere Diesels
The LaGrange Engine Club

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buickanddeere

02-25-2005 17:54:15
192.75.48.150



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 Re: What is a 1,000 rpm PTO for? in reply to WeirdDeere, 02-25-2005 00:10:34  
Knew about that vertical 1000rpm but wasn't going to admit that info up front. The conversion to 1000rpm was made in Nov or Dec 1959. The same month when the 840 serial number register went blank. Also the same month when 1961 model year 840's production started. I'll have to check the production log instead of trusting my memory. I did a pretty through search through the 840 and 840 parts books. Too bad the 1000 rpm wasn't made inside the transmission instead of outside. Both of mine are 540rpm.

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Jon H

02-25-2005 17:14:03
69.26.17.62



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 Re: What is a 1,000 rpm PTO for? in reply to WeirdDeere, 02-25-2005 00:10:34  
That reminds me of an experience I had at the Oliver dealer many years ago. Olivers like the 1950 could be fitted with not only the 540 and 1000 pto,but also an engine speed pto. I thought the engine speed pto would be ideal to run a standby generator that formerly had an engine to drive it. I headed to the parts counter and indicated to the partsman what I wanted. He gave me a bit of a crossways look and demanded to know why I wanted that setup. I explaned that it would be ideal th run this 1800 rpm generator at less than the tractors 2400 rpm engine speed which should be easier on the tractor at that light load. The partsman relaxed and explaned that another guy had bought the engine speed pto kit thinking this was what he needed for a 1000 rpm pto on his new forage chopper. Almost 2-1/2 times 1000 rpm and rotating backwards did nasty stuff to his new chopper :)

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